Ron Artest

No thanks

I was on the fence with Ron as recently as a week ago, but I just can't see investing any long term money in someone so mercurial. Granted, dude is rested as he has only played in as many as 70 games three times this decade (and once in the last four years once this year is over).

I think the issue with Ron (we're talking basketball issue) is that he wants to be the man, thinks he is the man, but he's not the man. If Ron Artest is your best player you will not be a championship caliber team. If he is not your best player he will still think that he is, and that will eventually prove to be quite disruptive.

Simply, the risk is not worth the reward. These kinds of headaches for LeBron or Kobe I would consider. But for an exceptionally gifted and more versatile Bruce Bowen? No thanks.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jan 20, 2008 10:17 AM PST reply actions

What Ron-Ron says today

Could be the exact opposite tomorrow. But it's pretty clear the Kings would be risking quite a bit to keep him around until his opt-out.

Disclaimer: I am anti-Bibby.

by otis29 on Jan 20, 2008 10:55 AM PST up reply actions

Yes

I completely agree with your post. Ron will always think he is the man, no matter what. Pair that with his locker room disruptions, and I am ready to see him leave. Package him with K9(woof!) for anything that wont be on the books next year, and I am cool with it.

Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal

by 27freethrows on Jan 20, 2008 7:12 PM PST up reply actions

You're right

I like Ron, but I yack when I see him holding the ball and dribbling around with time expiring. Martin, Salmons, etc shouldn't be standing around watching Artest try to save the team. That whole thing about him going to NY and saving the Knicks? (rolls eyes) Go for it dude.

So trade Artest, slide Salmons into the 3, and keep Bibby around - we need his outside shooting, at least until Douby gets it together.

by sonomanate on Jan 21, 2008 11:35 AM PST up reply actions

Thing is

I firmly believe that Ron-Ron is the best player on this team. The plus/minus numbers don't really lie, although I'd love to see those numbers for the last two minutes each game.

Thing is, where Ron-Ron hurts you on offense, he usually gives you that and more on the defensive side. For all the offensive talent we have on the squad, I'm not sure you could say they give you a similar amount on the defensive side of the ball.

Disclaimer: I am anti-Bibby.

by otis29 on Jan 21, 2008 12:56 PM PST up reply actions

agree but

I agree that he's probably our best player. But, he's looked terrible offensively the last two games. (Also, below in another post you will find an excellent critique of his team defense.) And over the past month Cisco and Salmons have really stepped up - especially in Ron's absence. At the beginning of the season I was very much opposed to trading Ron. I'm less so now, but feel like I need to see him in a few more game before jumping to conclusions. This transition is going to be tough on all the players and coaches.

by Kusian on Jan 21, 2008 3:04 PM PST up reply actions

Get it out of the system

He ain't coming back to Sactown. I rather see him traded this deadline.

I like Ronnie. In NBA 2K7, I'll definitely build my team around him. But, in the real world, forget it. The Kings need to trade this moron ASAP.

The Sacramento Kings: Where Amazing Happens!

by kingme18 on Jan 20, 2008 12:36 PM PST reply actions

Good Thing

Petrie doesn't use fickle fan polls to run the team.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Jan 20, 2008 1:18 PM PST reply actions

Fickle?

This is not a question of one being fickle. Far from it. This is taking the man's entire body of work when determining whether or not you can afford to take your franchise and invest heavily in him.

I just don't see the reward being worth the risk, especially when you have more talent at small forward than any other position on the team. Why take the risk on Artest when you know that you have Salmons at a very reasonable price for the next three years (after this one), as well as Francisco Garcia.

One other thing, coolcat - as a Kings fan through the very worst of times I bristle over your use of the word "fickle." I respect your opinion and the opinions of others at this site, which is why I asked the question. It is OK for someone to take an opposite view of your own without having to call them fickle. I dare say that if there is one thing that you cannot accuse anyone here of it's being fickle. We're all probably guilty of caring about this team too much, if anything.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jan 20, 2008 1:45 PM PST up reply actions

Section 214

You're such a fickle! ':-P

by dkons21 on Jan 20, 2008 2:11 PM PST reply actions

Fickle as in

Last week a diary concluded he was either the best or second best player on the team. This week it's dump him.

I believe there was also an Artest vs. Salmons poll earlier in which Artest was the clear winner.

The guy has been hurt and has just come back and they are winning. I am just saying to give the team, and Artest, a reasonable chance to show what they can do at full strength before drawing conclusions about the team's future.

If the team performs poorly in the next 2-3 weeks and Artest is a major reason why, then by all means, show him the door.

And sorry to tweak you with the word "fickle", Bluto.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Jan 20, 2008 2:44 PM PST reply actions

Right

I can say that Ron is one of the top players on the team (although I have not) and that I don't want to invest long term in him without it being fickle or contradictory. It's two different issues.

As it pertains to the Artest/Salmons poll, the maturation of John Salmons might cause some of those folks to change their view (or not), which is their right as loyal Kings fans.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jan 20, 2008 3:04 PM PST reply actions

Don't Take It Personally

I referred to the fan poll as fickle, not necessarily your opinions. Unless you represent all the "dump him" votes in the poll, I think you're off the hook as being "fickle."

Collectively, though, I stand by the word, although I admit it might be a little too pointy. I've expressed my opinions, and I respect the fact that I am in the minority with it.

Bottom line: Petrie is not going to make decisions based on what we think.

I think Artest and Bibby are going to regain their starting roles Tuesday and begin what could be their final audition. We'll know how this saga turns out in another month, so stay tuned.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Jan 20, 2008 3:38 PM PST reply actions

Fickle...

Might describe the fans who comment on Sac Bee's Kings articles. But by and large, this site is populated by 20+ year fans who have been here through more losing seasons than you can count on two hands. We've seen literally hundreds of players come and go, and have developed a keen sense of Kings style basketball. We know what fits and what doesn't fit, what's good for the team and what isn't.

I will grant that Petrie won't make a move based on what we as fans are saying. But I'm pretty sure that if the average StR fan is seeing a problem with Artest, Petrie, arguably the sharpest GM in the game, is seeing it, too.

I will also grant that Artest is individually one of the best players on the team. That doesn't mean that he fits with our offensive scheme, or that we shouldn't try to get some value out of him before he opts out.

But Artest will never be great because he doesn't make the players around him better. If anything, he makes them worse.

So stick with Fickle if you want, CC, but I still think trading Artest is the right move for this team at this point.

Don't make me come in there!

by LeaguePassAddict on Jan 21, 2008 9:47 AM PST up reply actions

I Disagree

with the comment that Artest doesn't make the players around him better. I think he inspires them to play better defense. I don't think a defensive mindset just happens, and I think he has a good influence on players like Francisco in that regard.

I agree he needs to use better shot selection and pass the ball around more. At times he does; at other times, he dominates too much.

Every Kings player has his faults. Brad sometimes whines (although not much lately) and can become a turnover machine when he dribbles too much or tries to be too fine on his passes. He's a so-so defender. Mikki has hands of stone. Kmart runs over people and doesn't defend that well. Salmons is inconsistent and also hogs the ball too much sometimes. Bibby shoots too much and is a mediocre defender. And so on down the line.

I think the trade decisions are going to depend on how the team fares before Feb. 6 unless a deal Petrie simply can't pass up comes around. I also think if Ron tests the free agent market it's going to be a crap shoot and there may not be the demand he (or his agent) thinks is going to be there, and the Kings might be able to sign him for 3-4 years in the same salary range he is in now.

I also don't think Ron can play for a better coach than Reggie, and he probably realizes that.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Jan 21, 2008 10:29 AM PST up reply actions

When Artest

is on the floor, he likes to bring the ball up himself. He is not a good passer, and doesn't initiate any kind of play except for himself.

When Artest is on the floor, our leading scorer and arguably best all-around player, Martin, sees his touches go way down.

No way should Artest be our first option on offense, but he takes more shots than anyone else. He takes too many threes. And the team's defense while he was out after surgery managed to do pretty well. As far as "inspiring" his team on defense, maybe in the first year, but I'd argue that Theus has more to do with the team's improved defense than anything Artest has ever said or done.

I agree that no player is perfect, but everyone except Artest understand and plays our motion offense.

He doesn't fit with what the team is trying to do. Ticking time bomb argument aside (who calls out his team and his coach in his first game back from injury?), I'm completely in agreement with those who have said that trading Artest will be addition by subtraction.

Don't make me come in there!

by LeaguePassAddict on Jan 21, 2008 10:54 AM PST up reply actions

Clarification needed.

Now I understand that Ron Artest has been instrumental in the defensive development of certain Kings players BUT I have to take issue with your defense of Ron Artest as a player who makes players around him better. It is well documented that the Kings have players that lack defensive motivation/skill/ability/intensity, mainly Mike Bibby and Brad Miller with Kevin Martin bringing up the rear. So where Rick Adelman (who I respect greatly)complained constantly about trying to make defensive marvel out defensive mud, Reggie Theus has done a solid job of working with what he has.

Now, while I agree that Ron Artest is one of the best (if not the best) on ball defender in the NBA, the Kings do not have the players around him to play a straight up man defensive scheme. When the Kings are playing man, Ron is a very valuable piece to the puzzle and a strong motivator for his sometime feeble cohorts. The issue that the Kings and for that matter Ron Artest has is that when the game dictates the transition to a zone defense, Ron Artest is rendered some what useless. Ron does not adjust quickly in the zone, his reaction and rotation is slow and he is often out of position. Ron also follows the nearest man to him and leaves his designated area, much like he does on offense costing the Kings open three point shots.

Artest is not a good help defender, he does not take charges or cut off the base line for his teammates and lastly he is a below average rebounder. Why is Ron Artest a bad rebounder? Because he doesn't box out with that huge frame and because he doesn't go get the ball.

By my evaluation, the Kings are better playing a zone defense than they are a man on scheme because of their personnel. Although Ron Artest is a great man to man defender, his mental lapses and lack of rebounding make his as much a liability as any of the other Kings on the defensive end. In the end, Artest is a square peg for a round hole. It doesn't really matter what work he does with younger players off the court, it is ultimately his inability to mesh into the on court schemes that are making him expendable. Oh yeah, his award winning personality and his refusal to keep his mouth shut to the press might also make the decision easier.

We are slipping into the NBA abyss.

by jjham15 @ Sactown Royalty on Jan 21, 2008 11:25 AM PST up reply actions

excellent breakdown

That is an excellent review of Ron's strengths and weaknesses on D. Nice job. Thank you.

by Kusian on Jan 21, 2008 11:50 AM PST up reply actions

the only thing I would add is . . .

. . . coachability. Can the player be coached and does he take guidance well? Brad Miller for all his faults has usually tried to do what the coach is asking for. Our young guys are constantly listening to Theus. You can see it in their eyes when they are on the sideline during a break. Bibby is an unknown. At times, he really seems to want to fit into the plan. But at other times he tries to do too much. I think Salmons occasionally suffers from a little bit of the same thing.

The problem with Artest is that he not only thinks he is a Kobe/LeBron type of player. He also thinks he knows the game better than the coach. It's that mentality that makes him such a ticking time bomb. He's like a four-year-old saying, "I can do it all myself." Sometimes you have to love him, but at other times you can only shake your head.

Considering that there is zero chance he will stay in Sac long term, and considering how stocked we are at the 2/3 there is no reason we shouldn't try to get a solid 4 or a 4 prospect for him.

But since his salary comes off the books at the end of the year anyway, I'd rather keep him than trade him for expiring salaries or something we don't need. There has got to be value to a team looking to make a deeper playoff push.

I wish he wouldn't have said that he would be willing to sign with the Knicks for their exception next year. That makes it a lot harder to get someone like Lee.

by SavageBeast on Jan 21, 2008 1:36 PM PST up reply actions

Artest is under paid....sort of.

I agree with Ron when he says that he has been under paid for a long time but how can he say that and then say he will sign with the Knicks for MLE. The Knicks are going to have to pony up to get Ron if that's what they want. Players often go to new situations and find out that they love it so if the Knicks don't want to be that location, they run the risk of Ron landing in a soft spot with his Bird Rights. The Kings will still hold a lot of the cards this off season. 28-29 year old NBA players don't just give up there Bird Rights unless they have no management at all. This is Ron's last real time to cash in for a 4-5 year deal worth big bucks. I just pray it's not in Sacto.

We are slipping into the NBA abyss.

by jjham15 @ Sactown Royalty on Jan 21, 2008 2:21 PM PST up reply actions

Underpaid

Add in the suspensions and he has probably been operating at a loss.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jan 21, 2008 3:09 PM PST up reply actions

Trade him

I've been screaming that Artest should be traded from Day 1. His off-court insanity speaks for itself. Artest is generally productive on court, save for disrupting the team's offensive flow.

If Artest were sane, I'd say keep him, though not at $10 million per year. The fact that he is unstable means what it meant from the beginning: He should be someone else's problem.

by Carl on Jan 21, 2008 10:59 AM PST up reply actions

Who can decipher his words?

Is he really saying he will opt out? Forget about Artest going to the Knicks. As long as Isiah is in NY there will be no rings there. If he made one thing clear it's that he wants to win a ring. Is he now admitting he can't do it as a King?

by KingsFan on Jan 20, 2008 4:29 PM PST reply actions

Artest on Opting Out: A Strong Maybe

http://www.sacbee.com/100/story/648351.html

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080120/SPORTS04/801200405/1062/SPORTS04

by coolcatreportdotcom on Jan 20, 2008 5:00 PM PST reply actions

Bet The House

Ron is now saying you can "bet the house" that he is going to opt out. Given current real estate values I may just do that.

It's in the 3rd bullet of the attached -

http://detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080121/OPINION03/801210365/1004/SPORTS

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jan 21, 2008 9:30 AM PST reply actions

Hmm

I'm off the Artest train, haven't really been behind him since the midseason trade. I love his defensive play and his aggression - but as far as team impact goes, I don't think he's that significant. Call me fickle if you want, but that team spark he provided just never real shined through after the that first half season.. To me at least?

by melee on Jan 21, 2008 10:19 AM PST reply actions

Tradeable

I wonder how him coming out and admitting he is highly likely to opt out will affect his tradability. Will teams that were considering the trade earlier that will likely not contend this season wait to snatch him up for free at the seasons end? It seems probable that he has limited current suitors to championship or at least playoff contenders as trade options of which I have not heard many rumors about. On the other hand have we ever known GP to fill us in early on his trade plans?

balls to the walls

by kangsfan on Jan 21, 2008 10:50 AM PST reply actions

I don't think he is hurting his value.

Artest is known to run his mouth. There are a lot more options for Petrie than just the Knicks and Heat so I wouldn't doubt that when Artest is traded we will all be caught off guard by where he goes and what the Kings get back in return. I would look for a playoff contender needing a boost for the playoffs. Teams like Golden State, Dallas, Houston who need a big lift and some toughness might be willing to make something happen (even if it takes multiple teams to make it happen). If I know I'm going to have to face LaBron or Kobe in the playoffs I might pay for Artest, even it is for 1/2 a season and then let it play out after the season ends. Remember, Artest is probably going to need whatever team he is traded to to help him get his next deal.

We are slipping into the NBA abyss.

by jjham15 @ Sactown Royalty on Jan 21, 2008 11:39 AM PST up reply actions

I hate to say it, but...

What about a trade to club faker?Don't they need "a lift" to improve their playoff prospects?

by Rhondda Nunes on Jan 21, 2008 5:18 PM PST up reply actions

& wouldn't it be funny...

To see he & Kobe"sharing"?

by Rhondda Nunes on Jan 21, 2008 6:10 PM PST up reply actions

I voted no

Do I like Artest? Yes, actually. I think he is a helluva defender, and has come at a bargain rate for what he provides. But with a team that is striving to have salary cap flexibility so we can make some future moves, do I want to be trying to out-bid Isiah Thomas? Hell no.

Look at the elite teams in the league. Look at the elite teams across all sports. Quite a few of them have learned the lesson that when a player will become too expensive to retain, you just let them go.

In Geoff we trust...

by Exhibit G on Jan 21, 2008 11:48 AM PST reply actions

question

did Artest say that he's settle for the MLE? Hopefully, he'd force a team like NYK to do a sign and trade with us. I voted no for obvious reasons and would be horribly upset if we resigned him. Salmons is ready to start. Garcia is not to shabby either.

by kingme on Jan 21, 2008 12:19 PM PST reply actions

MLE

Knicks fans have promoted the MLE possibility, and they get excited whenever they see Ron make one of his "money isn't everything" comments. However, money is everything to Ron's agent, and he will broker the deal. Remember, money wasn't everything to Chris Webber either, yet he wound up signing with the team that could pay him the most - your Sacramento Kings.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jan 21, 2008 1:00 PM PST up reply actions

Who has the cap room to give Artest 10 million?

I'll tell you who: no one who wants him.

Now, I could very well be wrong, but the teams who will have room for Artest are the teams who got to that positions specificall by not taking gambles on guys like Artest, or are currently rebuilding and thus don't need him.

Portland (waiting for their pg of the future), Seattle(wing positions set for the next fifteen years), New Orleans (hahahahahaha, Peja and Artes on the same team? who is he going to replace on the line-up? David West? Tyson Chandler?), Charlotte(have a guy we used to know that fills that position), Toronto(Artest in the paint isn't conducive for euroleague play)), Philadelphia(looking for their everythings of the future), Milwaukie (hmmmmm, in the realm of possibility, if he wants to play fourthfiddle to Yi, Bogut and Redd)), Atlanta (wing positions set for the near-future), who wants him for 10 million? Nobondy.

Name me a team that wants a really-good-but-too-self-involved-player-with-a-dangerous-history-and-is-asking-to-be-overaid. Artest can win wih his defense, but chooses to lose with his offense. Thats the state of things.

Who's going to roll the dice on Artest (and those are heavy dice)? I think Artest doesn't opt-out. We got him for this and the next two.

Under those terms, maybe somebody'll take the gamble. $16 million and two years. Who's willing to give up for that (and how much are they willing to give up?). The Knicks are the only ones desperate enough. I can't think of another team, I really can't.

by iashwash on Jan 21, 2008 2:33 PM PST up reply actions

In summary,

Artest isn't going to get all the offers people think he's going to get. His agent's going to take a good look around, realize he's not fielding any offers, and will tell Artest to opt-in. Whether Artest listens to his agent is up to Artest (ie... not even the Good Lord knows).

Two years ago, it took a gamble by two people who don't know basketball (the Maloofs) and the knowledge that they were losing their star who was about to be overpaid (60 million for Peja? yeah, right) to get Artest the frik out of Indy.

He ain't leaving Sactown. Only Isaih's that stupid. And he ain't even stupid enough to throw in David Lee, so Petrie ain't stupid enough to give him value.

by iashwash on Jan 21, 2008 2:48 PM PST up reply actions

Nope

Artest will definitely opt out, but my guess is he will be making that decision for another franchise.

And he will get offers if he does opt out. Talent reigns in this league, and Artest has loads of that. On top of that, I'm guessing he and Theus will drive each other nuts by the end of the season (if he's not traded of course) and Artest will gladly find greener pastures, probably closer to New York City or with a team that is contending for a title right now.

Disclaimer: I am anti-Bibby.

by otis29 on Jan 21, 2008 3:02 PM PST up reply actions

Which team?

Which contender? Golden State? Miami? Orlando? Boston? New Jersey? Dallas? San Antonio? Phoenix? Utah? Houston? Detroit?
Let's break it down:

Golden State - I didn't think they gave up Jason Richardson to hide their Rookie behind Artest.
Miami - Yes. Entirely possible.
Orlando - Except for the fact that he is trying to fill the same positions as Hedo and the $120 million Rashard.
Boston - Ummm, no.
New Jersey - They have a guy named Richard Jefferson. He's pretty good.
Dallas - Other than the fact the Josh Howard is freaking nasty, I can clearly see why Dallas would want to replace their small-forward.
San Antonio - Hahaahahaa.
Phoenix - Shawn Marion makes 16 million. If they can change that for 10 million of a guy who needs the ball on a team who has their ballhandler? No.
Utah - Boozer fills the paint. They're looking for shooting wings who play good D, yes. But they had the big scare with AK this summer, I doubt they're looking for more character-issue guys.
Houston - Possible, but they'll have to do some major revamping to fit him in.
Detroit - Hahahahahaaaaa.

So, Artests options are Miami (no cap room) and New York (no cap room). Artest ain't making ten million, and if he opts out its opting for less money.

by iashwash on Jan 21, 2008 3:45 PM PST up reply actions

You didn't mention the lakers...

Wasn't there a mention in the off-season about that?

by Rhondda Nunes on Jan 21, 2008 6:13 PM PST up reply actions

Also

Sorry, didn't want to seem argumentative - I just trying to figure out who will give Artest the value everyone says he has. Everyone on this site assumes he'll get paid. I'm asking by whom?

If no one can or is willing to pay him straight up, what makes us think we'll get value for him in a trade? Best case scenario is we get cap room.

Free agents this summer are:
Deng, Gordon, Petrius, Brand, AIguadola, Emeka Okafur, Flip Murray, Walter Herrmann, Primoz Brezec, Bonzi Wells, Steve Francis, Ricky Davis, Ryan Gomes, Craig Smith, Grant Hill, Michael Finley, Kurt Thomas, Delonte West, Jermaine O'neals got the early termination (which he won' take), Coery Maggette also has one (which he might take), Iverson hasn't been renewed yet (which he will), oh yeah, and Gilbert Arenas is going to opt-out.

Throw in some beastly rookies every bottom-rung team is praying for, its hard to see Artest getting much value this summer.

Please correct me if you see it coming from somewhere, but tell me where.

by iashwash on Jan 21, 2008 3:59 PM PST up reply actions

See Sections answer below

Cause he hit it right on the head. When you have a talent like Artest, teams will be damn creative to get him. And Petrie knows he has value as well, so I doubt Artest will walk without getting something back.

One thing I do see as a possibility - the Lakers could certainly use a guy like Artest to compliment the Mamba.

Disclaimer: I am anti-Bibby.

by otis29 on Jan 21, 2008 4:28 PM PST up reply actions

Thats true...

But the lakers are dealing with one superstar-who-might-blow, have Lamar Odom to deal with, and have young talent they're trying to develop on the wings (Ariza - though he recently got injured). Plus, they have to sign fan-fave Turiaf, deliberate on Sasha, deal with Kwame, and might worry of player options on Ariza and Mihms.

They're currently at 68 million, they need to leave room for what will be a huge contract for thier big kid in the paint in a couple years.
Do they upgrade Odom for Artest? That's possible. We wouldn't want Artest back, but some teams might want Odom, and a three-way trade involving those two is possible, with the kings getting young talent and a pick.

Okay, thats a legitimate situation for value, and I can see how Artest gets 10+ million if that case arises.

But, this is Supply v Demand, simply put. One team isn't going to go outbid itself, especially not one such as the Lakers who have been trying their best to carefully put the right pieces around Kobe - they might rile at Artest wanting the ball, when they want Kobe and Bynum to have the ball. Plus, a big item on their wish list is a good point guard, and might save their assets for that scenario.

Though, we could trade Artest straight up for Kwame right now (that'll mean the Lakers expect to ride the wave without a PF till Bynum comes back). That'll be sweeet.
But, do the Kings really want to help the Lakers out? Really? Play against Artest four times a year? Possible.

Alright, Otis. You win with this example. Gimme more.

by iashwash on Jan 21, 2008 4:56 PM PST up reply actions

Not so fast!!!

Deng, Gordon, Iguadola, Okafor, West are all restricted free-agents (teams have the option to match any offer as long as they make a qualifying offer), Brand is coming off a major injury and would have to opt out of 16 million to become a free-agent. If Gilbert is healthy he will opt out, at 26 he is under contract for 1yr/12 mill but again, if he isn't healthy he would be much better served going into free agency as a 27 year old hopefully without health concerns. O'neal is pretty worn down and would leave 2yrs at roughly 44 million to opt out which is not going to happen.

Artest doesn't look so bad all things considered. He might be one of the bigger free agents this summer.

We are slipping into the NBA abyss.

by jjham15 @ Sactown Royalty on Jan 21, 2008 7:14 PM PST up reply actions

A couple of things -

Anyone can go over the cap via a sign and trade, which can be facillitated by whomever has Artest and his Bird rights.

Anyone who trades for Artest right now could be only trading for him to try to put themselves over the top for this year. Do not rule out even a team like San Antonio - while it would be highly unlikely it is also true that the Spurs would hate to see Ron in a Mavs or Suns uniform.

Take the Justin Williams approach - free your mind and think three way when it comes to a trade. Cap room, schmap room - there's a way to make these deals work if enough teams get involved.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jan 21, 2008 4:17 PM PST reply actions

Again with the lack of details....

The Mavericks are more interested in getting a legitimate superstar (heavy talks in the Kobe talks, and are desperately awaiting a Jason Kidd sweepstakes).
The Suns are interested in shedding cap room, and Steve Kerr isn't going to make another Boris Diaw screwup.
Neither the Mavericks nor the Suns will take Artest, so the Spurs will never, EVER sign Artest (come on, this is a team that gave away Beno, James "Flight" White and Louis Scola - no way they sign Artest just to keep him off another team). Those teams are too well run and doing to well, they're looking for a different kind of gamble.

Now, I agree that a sign-and-trade is possible, and its likely that's how Artest will go. But whos going to pay all that money and give up assets for the rights to Artest destroying their locker room? Artest has talent, yes. But who wants it? Indiana tried desperately to get value for Artest, and they got four months of Peja (which New Orleans gladly obliged them a sign-and-trade so they could get that trade exception, but that was partly luck).

The reason I'm stressing this point is to show that we're attatching too much value for Artest on these forums. If we can get him for David Lee and an expiring contract, we should take him. I just don't think he's got enough value to get us an up-and-comer or good draft picks.

We're in the same position as Indiana. If he opts-out, we might get a trade exception. Hopefully we can turn it into something lik Al Harrington. Otherwise, we get nothing.

We got the How part of Artest leaving, and we know the Whys. Im asking about the Wheres.

by iashwash on Jan 21, 2008 4:39 PM PST up reply actions

OK

My bet is that if we had been offered Lee and expiring contract David Lee would be here already.

Otis' example is perfect. Artest goes to the Lakers for whatever. Again, no reason to be too specific here because to make a deal work may involve one or more yet to be determined teams. Whether or not they can afford to keep hin long term is besides the point. They have him for this year, and that's enough to at least concern Dallas/Phoenix/San Antonio.

Now if Ron goes off (in a good way) the Lakers either have to work to keep him or they sign and trade him, because as you have pointed out few teams will be able to outright sign him. And if they don't want to keep him they're one (half) and done.

A player making $7.8 million with an opt out is an easily tradeable commodity. One with Ron's talent even more so. The question is not whether or not Ron can be moved. The question is what can we get in return.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jan 21, 2008 5:40 PM PST up reply actions

Hmmmmmm....

Sorry, I wasn't making my statements clear.

The David Lee + Expiring contract was an example of something that Artests current value isn't worth. Any young stud isn't worth giving up for Artest, considering what I percieve to be his theoretical value as a free agent this summer, when taking into account his current effect on team play, his percieved social dysfunctionality, the teams looking to fill his position, and the avaiablity of other players in the market.

So, you're right - the question is: what can we get in return? But, I think that fundamental to that question is an argument of who is going to take him, because the amount of people who want him affects how badly they want him, which affects his value which affects what people get for him in return.

Why are people so worried about Beno this summer? Same reason Toronto is worried about Calderon: alot of teams desperate for a championship are aching for point guards: they are Cleaveland, Miami, Denver, New York, Los Angeles, Atlanta, Portland (in some ways Dallas and Boston too). All of these teams have assets that they will give to get their point guard (look at what happened with Mo Williams and the Bucks last offseason, if Miami wasn't so interested, the Bucks would've saved 20 million - thats alot).

Can we say the same for Artest? I'm arguing no, and outside of LA no one has provided another example to suggest otherwise.
Also, there are alot of players available at the same position (hell, half the reason people here want to trade Artest is because we got Salmons to replace him). True, he is better than most of them and at better value, but the fact that many are available is an indication that many aren't needed.

Everyone has attatched all this value to Artest, but I don't see where its coming from.

If I'm New York, I don't trade David Lee for Ron Artest. If I'm New Jersey, I don't trade Sean Williams for Ron Artest. If I'm Miami, I keep Udonis Haslem, and pray I get a point guard this summer and maybe sign Artest this summer (or I use my expiring contracts to get one of them now, throwing in Dorell Wright if I ave to but not Cook). If I'm LA, the only reason I consider Artest is because Lamar Odom isn't being Lamar Odom, so I take the gamble and see if Kobe gets along with him. If not, I don't resign him at the end of the year. Now, I very well am very wrong, but I don't see where the percieved value for Artest is coming from.

Where could Artest go? Who needs him, specifically, so much so they'll give up talent for him? If this list is small to the point of one, then we get nothing for Artest. If there is alot of teams, then we can say he has value. But if nobody can name teams and situations (like the Lakers), then we need to accept that maybe the value we percieve isn't the value there.

Sidenote - Reasons why I'm harping so much on this conversation? Because I don't think people understand how hard it is to move Artest, and I don't want to see the inecessant Petrie-flaming that will occur when we get nothing for him. And I don't want to hear any more talk about the nice player we'll be getting for Artest, because he's not coming.

by iashwash on Jan 21, 2008 7:08 PM PST up reply actions

Miami is already over the cap.

Even without all their expiring contracts, the combo of Shaq, Wade, Haslem, Blount and Cook = 50 mill. If Smush opts to stay and they make a qualifying offer to Wright, the Heat should be at the cap with a draft pick and 5 other roster spots to fill. I don't blame Reilly for wanting to get the hell out of Miami, he has really dug that franchise a hole.

The only reason that the Knicks haven't traded David Lee for Artest is because Isiah, if nothing else has drafted well and hopes to leave Lee, Balkman and Robinson as his legacy in NY. Artest is obviously a better player than Lee and the Knicks desperately need Artest at the three. Artest plays a Eastern Conference style, he could really pull a team with no personality together. And all of this is coming from a guy who can't stand Ron Artest. Lee is cheap and fills a drastic need, if the Knicks want Artest next season they will make this trade soon.

19 points a game- All NBA defender- Larry Bird rights- budget contract with 40 games to see if it works out. Artest has value galore.

We are slipping into the NBA abyss.

by jjham15 @ Sactown Royalty on Jan 21, 2008 7:28 PM PST up reply actions

Diamonds galore.

"19 points a game- All NBA defender- Larry Bird rights- budget contract with 40 games to see if it works out. Artest has value galore."

Yes, those facts are a given. The question isn't whether Artest himself is a great player - hell, if he wasn't, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The question is how badly do other teams want him to the point where that influences their value.
If Isaih doesn't want to affect what little legacy he has by trading Lee, than maybe he doesn't care about his job as it stands now to pull the trigger on Artest, and risk further screwing himself over.

If NY isn't that interested, then the amount of teams interested decreases. Its taking a rather simple economic Supply/Demand model. I'm arguing that most teams looking for wings can find other options cheaper on the market, whilst the few teams that are looking for gamechangers aren't really in osition to give much value. Hence, low market value for Artest. Doesnt matter if your selling pearls when most girls want diamonds, and the galls who want the pearls can't give you much for them.

by iashwash on Jan 21, 2008 8:08 PM PST up reply actions

I don't disagree

But I think that there are two markets as it pertains to Artest - the short term win a championship market, and the long term market. I think that Ron's greatest value lies in the short term market. Again, I'm not going to go through the mental gymnastics of brokering a trade, as it could very well involve a couple of teams in order to bring the Kings the combination of expiring contract, youth and/or draft picks that Petrie craves. This is why I did not make returning players part of my question. It is far too complicated an issue for a country bumpkin like me.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jan 21, 2008 7:50 PM PST up reply actions

Section-

nice post dude, this basic question really developed into a great discussion. Thanks!

We are slipping into the NBA abyss.

by jjham15 @ Sactown Royalty on Jan 21, 2008 7:55 PM PST up reply actions

Haha

True, I'm not sure I'm even asking what exactly we'll get back. I'm just asking about the teams that would want Artest enough to give us value for him, because if we can't get value for him, Petrie won't trade him. And if no one likes him enough to trade for him now, then no one is going to pay him alot, which means our Bird Rights won't net us anything because the other team might just sign Artest outright.

Its an important question, I don't care what kind of trade we make (I'm fine with just turning his 8 mil into Speedracer payroll), but we need to be aware of what his market value is if we're going to get the best value in return. Market value depends on what teams want him. So far we have only been able to come up 3 teams who want him, and none of them might give us the value we're requesting. Keep it in mind guys, we might get nothing for Artest.

If Petrie gets anything (other than cap space), it'll be a freaking miracle. If he doesn't, lets not burn the guy.

by iashwash on Jan 21, 2008 8:17 PM PST up reply actions

That's what people said about . . .

T.O. and, as much as it hurts me to say it being a life long silver and black fan, Randy Moss. Who would want a cancer like them on their team? Oh wait, two teams that nearly faced each other in the Superbowl.

by SavageBeast on Jan 21, 2008 5:47 PM PST up reply actions

Bird exception....

In order to do a sign and trade the destination team has to either have the cap space required or trade contracts within 20% of the incoming contract dollar (higher or lower). The Kings can sign Artest for any amount without regard to the cap but will incur penalty if the contract extension pushes the overall team salary above the cap threshold (no 2.5 million NBA pat on the back bonus and dollar for dollar for any amount over the cap). Artests' bird rights will transfer with him via trade and if he opts out the Kings will retain his right until he signs with another team. The Kings can renounce his rights once he opts out and if they were under the cap they could use that money to sign another player (they will not be under the cap unless either Bibby or K-9 also opt out).

We are slipping into the NBA abyss.

by jjham15 @ Sactown Royalty on Jan 21, 2008 6:46 PM PST up reply actions

three way

This has been a passionate intelligent thread and I was thoroughly entertained by everyone's posts but...

I gotta tell you s214, my overly tired mind flashed on your third paragraph and said "What? Wait! (1)Dr. Buss + (1)bottle of Dom + (2) 22 year old hookers = done deal? Pretty sure the Maloofs' can pull this one off!

But that makes it a four way...sigh.

Sorry for crapping up the thread.

God bless you, Corliss. You always played as though you knew how expensive my tickets were. -section214

by KK on Jan 21, 2008 7:13 PM PST up reply actions

Well

I'm probably one of 10 or 11 people left in Sacramento who think he isn't part of the problem, but rather part of the solution. That said, if he departure is as inevitable as it seems, might as well move him before he leaves. Of course, I only endorse a move if it's a damn good one, otherwise just wait for the clearing of his pay and hit free agency.

by PissedOffGorilla on Jan 22, 2008 6:40 AM PST reply actions

Another Take from Hoopsworld

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=7033

"Only now - with Kevin Martin back from his groin injury, Mike Bibby back from his thumb injury and Ron Artest back from his elbow injury - has Sacramento been afforded the opportunity to see how much it can make of Reggie Theus' first season as coach.

The early results have been encouraging, so encouraging one has to wonder if the Kings might not be better served amid an arena push and somewhat waning hometown support to keep pushing forward with the current mix. ...

... Should Artest be dealt, Bibby likely would be cast aside as well, in a youth movement.

For now, though, stay the course; these past few weeks have been particularly refreshing.

The upcoming schedule if favorable, with the likes of the Nets, Clippers, Sonics and Bobcats.

If .500 can be a reality, then let it play out without a move.

But if the early-February run of Utah, Golden State, Houston and Portland proves too taxing, well, there still will be three shopping days until the deadline.

By then, Petrie's tune figures to change from, "We'll get back to you on that." "

by coolcatreportdotcom on Jan 22, 2008 7:51 AM PST reply actions

That hometown support

isn't waning for lack of "superstar" players. It's waning because the team isn't winning, and further isn't fun to watch when our offense consists of iso and two man plays. It's waning because of off-the-court problems and on-the-court drama. And all of that is at least partially on Artest.

I would also suggest that it has hit its low point and is on the upswing again.

The argument to "keep the current mix" to help an arena push makes no sense. Artest is on his way out, and while he's a name everybody knows, I doubt he's a beloved keystone of our community. Especially with his latest comments about opting out.

Don't make me come in there!

by LeaguePassAddict on Jan 22, 2008 3:48 PM PST up reply actions