The Situation With Denver

by Ziller on Feb 19, 2008 7:17 AM PST in Free Agency/Trades Comment 50 comments

Heading into the final three days of trade rumors for the season, Sam Amick lays out the parameters with regards to Denver:

The holdup remains third-year small forward Linas Kleiza, a player the Nuggets continue to attempt to hold on to in any deal for Artest. There remains a disagreement within the Nuggets' higher-ups whether Kleiza is valuable enough to lose for Artest, with coach George Karl believed to be reluctant to lose him and vice president of basketball operations Mark Warkentien motivated to acquire Artest.

I'd prefer Kleiza to Denver's draft pick. But I wouldn't shriek in horror if it were the draft pick which came back instead of Kleiza.

Of course, I'd really prefer both. Not sure that option's on the table (and, in fact, rather doubtful it is).

And if you're still of the opinion Artest should be kept, read this.

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Kleiza is a dealbreaker

for me, personally. He's so cheap, and gives the Kings a player they really don't have. Sure, the Kings're loaded at the wings - but they don't have a fundamental shooter; we have guys who can shoot, yes, but no one I can explicitly call a marksman (sorry, as much as I love Kevin, I'm not calling him a sniper with that shot - more a like a grunt in the bush with an AK: dangerous and can release a barrage of shots, but gives you a sense of security at distance even though there's a chance he can hit). What's great about Kleiza is that he can produce off the bench - 14.91 PER off the bench with 25 minutes. Though, his .340 shooting is eating away at my argument, but I'm going to chalk that up to Denver's pace (but more experienced statisticians might prevail in this regard). Oh, yeah - he does all that and plays defense. Very worthwhile pick-up.

I also think that rotating him in with Kevin and Salmons at the wing will create very unique matchup oppurtunities that could improve ball-sharing in the line-up.

He's also young, and cheap. If the Kings don't get Kleiza, then I hope Petrie starts hunting for Brandan Wright. But, gut instincts alone are telling me that the Kigns need to add a solid prospect by seasons end - for the good of the franchise, on multiple levels (player-wise, casual-fan-wise, ownership-happiness-wise, our-collective-faith-in-Petrie-wise). There's a chance Shelden can be that, but I think he needs more time than thirty games to figure that out. Another young shooter in the mix will certainly help him, as he won't have to feel so guilty about making mistakes.

Mikki Moore in the skills challenge! - LPA

by iashwash on Feb 19, 2008 7:58 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Well said.

As much as I think Artest is a cancer, if we come out of Denver with nothing but a draft pick, I will be disappointed. If nothing else, Kleiza could be a nice trade piece down the road.

by SavageBeast on Feb 19, 2008 8:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

If we get

two stale Twinkies and a rubberband ball for Artest, I'll be delighted.

Expiring Eddie with Kleiza and/or draft pick is good. I don't know where we'd play Kleiza anyway, unless we let Garcia go after this season.

The ticking is getting louder, on both the time clock on the trade deadline and the timebomb about to go off.

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by LeaguePassAddict on Feb 19, 2008 8:51 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

You can't have too many good players

with low salaries. Those are the pieces of future trades.

Much as I like Garcia, I'm still not convinced he is our small forward of the future. Once we dump Ron, we will have K-Mart, Garcia, and Douby that can play the 2. And Salmons and Garcia that can play the 3. My guess is that Kleiza could end up being our second option at the three after Salmons, while Garcia and Douby fight for back up 2. A first round Denver draft pick may have some value depending on where they end up.

Allk that being said, I'd rather get only a draft pick than keep Artest for the rest of the season.

by SavageBeast on Feb 19, 2008 9:23 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Point taken

So then who would you rather see behind Salmons at 3? Assuming we can't get Kleiza. And would you rather have Garcia or Douby behind Martin at 2?

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by LeaguePassAddict on Feb 19, 2008 10:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

That's exactly my point.

Douby is never going to be a point guard in my opinion, and he's far too small to play the three. So he is going to ge the back-up two when he plays. Garcia is actually a better ball handler and I like the D he plays against the other team's sharp shooter--who is usually the 2. So without Kleiza you have

2 Martin/Garcia/Douby
3 Salmons/Garcia

If Douby doesn't get a more consistant game, you struggle. With Kleiza we have more options and some potential trade bait. Ther are always teams looking for a young guy that can nail the 3.

by SavageBeast on Feb 19, 2008 2:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Seems like Petrie is softening?

I haven't heard mention of the K-9 part of the deal for Artest in a while. Has Denver now eliminated K-9 from the negotiation?

by KingsFan on Feb 19, 2008 8:50 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Well...

I think this is because he has decided not to pursue Nene, which for a rebuilding franchise is the right decision.

by moproblemz on Feb 19, 2008 8:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

I never understood the interest in a cancer stricken player with $40 mil still owed to him. Any GM would be crazy to touch that. That's Denver's tough luck.

by KingsFan on Feb 19, 2008 5:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

About K-9

I know the guy is making a ton of money for doing nothing, but when will this guy realize that his future with the Kings is nil, and that every day he languishes on the end of the bench, usually in a suit, his potential future with another team takes a hit?

When does his pride kick in, demanding he get the chance to show another team what he can do for them? When does he ask for a reasonable buy-out of his bloated contract so that he can do what he says he wants to do, play ball?

He's not tradeable because nobody is going to take what is now a totally unknown quantity at that price.

So, come on, Kenny. Ask for a way out. Find a team that can use you with a contract you can live with. Jason Hart did it last season, ended up helping the Warriors in the playoffs and now is a good fit with the Jazz. Follow his lead. Go.

TickTickTickTickTickTick

by LeaguePassAddict on Feb 19, 2008 9:10 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Good point

I wonder if Petrie is duscussing a buy-out with K-9's agent? With Sheldon Williams coming in I'm sure K-9 realizes he has no future with the Kings.

by KingsFan on Feb 19, 2008 9:22 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The problem

He can't opt out and expect to make the $17 million guaranteed over the next two years back in even a new four- or five-year deal. No one's going to sign him for more than a sub-$5 million one-year flyer, or maybe something like $7 million for two years.

Bibby could have realistically thought he could still make $27 million for the balance of his career by opting out last year... but he didn't. There's no way K-9 (woof!) signs another $17 million contract... so he certainly won't be opting out.

And a buy-out doesn't really help the salary cap space, unless he signs with someone for a substanital chunk of change (unlikely to impossible). Plus, that negates the one positive attribute he has left: As an expiring contract. We have 1-1/2 years (at least) until that helps, though.

by Ziller on Feb 19, 2008 9:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Explain

If we buy out Thomas's contract, for, say, $8.5 mil (half of what he's owed), wouldn't that take $8.5 mil off the books for the Kings? Even if it's only half of that per year, that's 4 million a year. Enough to sign a young guy/role player. That would give us more value than we're currently getting for Thomas.

What am I missing? I'm sure there's some obscure rule that totally negates what I'm saying, so explain it to me.

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by LeaguePassAddict on Feb 19, 2008 10:41 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, but.

He's not going to take a buyout for 50%; even Adonal Foyle, who has been forever identified as the least greedy/full-of-himself in the league, gave up only about 35% if I remember correctly... and that was a huge deal, because most give up no more than 10-15%.

If K-9 (woof!) gave up 15%, it'd save the Kings $1 million per year. Since the Kings won't be in a position to sign a major free agent this summer without moving Kenny, that $1 million doesn't help. It'd be another $1 million next summer, but by that point you might actually be able to move Kenny as an expiring (in 2010) contract (a la Ratliff, Kwame, etc.), so the benefit of the $1 million of flexibility would be negated.

If you could get him to give half his salary, yes it'd help. But that seems highly unlikely.

by Ziller on Feb 19, 2008 11:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Where did you get that info

About what Foyle got bought out? (If you rememeber I'd prefer a steering in the right direction link--other than GSOM--I can look there now.)

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 19, 2008 12:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

LPA & TZ

I found a link on Foyle's buyout from hoopsworld.

Here is some of the text if reading the whole thing isn't for you:

The contract buyout amount the Warriors agreed to will be included in the team's salary cap figure this season rather than Adonal's scheduled $8,937,500 salary. The figure charged to the team's cap number would be in direct proportion to whatever the buyout total was. For example, had Foyle agreed to a buyout of $16-million, roughly 80% of the money he was owed, 80% of his salary for each season he is under contract would be counted against the Warriors cap figure. Assuming the buyout was $16-million, Foyle will still count for $7.15-million on the Warriors cap figure next season (80% of his $8,937,500 salary for 2007-08) and $7.8-million in 2008-09 (80% of his $9,750,000 salary in 2008-09). Again, these figures are dependent upon whatever the actual buyout figure was, which should be known in the next few days.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 19, 2008 1:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Ok

So saving a million a year isn't going to help us as much as his expiring contract will if he continues to display his sartorial resplendence at the end of the Kings' bench.

But that sickens me. I mean, if he took half as a buyout from us, he'd still be able to draw a salary ($2-3 mil maybe) from somebody, which gets him close for the next two years to what he's making now, AND he gets to play.

But, then, if I was getting paid that much to work up a sweat in practice then show up in a suit for the game, I'd probably buy a new suit or two and smile.

TickTickTickTickTickTick

by LeaguePassAddict on Feb 19, 2008 2:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Actions continue to win the volume battle vs words

As TZ pointed out, K-9 will not get another contract like this one...ever. Remember, Billy King is no longer a GM. As for increasing his trade value, he's already trying to do that. He's saying he wants to play more. These are empty words. His actions show his true motivation. He is fine with sitting on a bench and getting paid millions of dollars to do so.

In Geoff we trust...

by Exhibit G on Feb 19, 2008 10:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

read it differently

After a lot of internal debate, I support the trade of Artest, TZ. Still, I read the article differently, feeling it was referencing issues that Theus and Artest had earlier in the year and the fact that part of being an effective NBA coach is learning how to deal with individual players. And, as such, some players require more attention and finese.

The tough thing about Artest is that he has these games when he's an absolute f*cking monster and he teases you into thinking he can do it all the time. (He plays hard all the time, but doesn't play smart all the time.) At his best, he is easily our best all-around player.

We all need to keep in mind that this trade - should it happen - is about the future. We trade Ron and we are a worse team. Love him or hate him, he's a very, very good and unique player with a skill-set not easily replaced. Hopefully, though, we become better in the long-term.

Keeping my fingers crossed..............

by Kusian on Feb 19, 2008 9:33 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

I disagree

I think without Artest, we have an offensive scheme that works well with the remaining players we have. It's a motion offense- crisp passes, penetrate and dish, cutting without the ball. Artest doesn't do any of those things. Not because he can't but because he doesn't want to.

With Artest gone, it opens up the flow again, and as a bonus, the team becomes infinitely more coachable.

I'd be surprised if we saw our winning percentage go down significantly by the end of the year without Artest.

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by LeaguePassAddict on Feb 19, 2008 10:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

hope you are right

and I am dead wrong.

by Kusian on Feb 19, 2008 10:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The only problem with your thinking

Is that you don't mention the defensive end of the court.

Man, it can be ugly basketball offensively with Artest in the lineup, but the numbers hardly lie - his plus/minus and the team's winning % with and without Ron-Ron tells me that this team may be more fun to watch, but less successful in the won/loss column.

Of course, it all depends on what we get back for him, or if it opens up salary down the road to be players in free agency.

Disclaimer: I am anti-Bibby.

by otis29 on Feb 19, 2008 11:20 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Not only that but ...

Without Artest the Kings have no low post game.

by KingsFan on Feb 19, 2008 11:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

If Artest

was content to be a low-post player, he might still be of value. But he wants to be the man, running the offense, taking 3's, playing iso.

I'm not as worried about the defense. Salmons is a good defender, and, with the exception of T-Mac, Artest hasn't completely shut anyone down lately. He's also not a great team defense guy, in my opinion, which will probably get me some grief from some quarters, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

TickTickTickTickTickTick

by LeaguePassAddict on Feb 19, 2008 1:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Actually

Salmons gets a lot of points in the paint, but we will definitely win fewer games without Artest. But the bottom line is, one way or another he won't be here next year. And since we are not going to the playoffs, we might as well get something for him now and start playing the team that will carry us into the future. If we had a shot at the playoffs this year, I might feel differently.

by SavageBeast on Feb 19, 2008 2:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Artest

I'm all for trading Ron Ron for a moldy cheese sandwich. TZ pointed out the main reasons why after the Memphis loss. This team was just more fun to watch without Bibby and Artest, and Bill Simmons touched on it in the half paragraph of basketball that he wrote about in his All Star Weekend column. These younger players are likeable, and they bust their ass, which as a basketball fan is all I really expect out of my team. Win or lose if everybody's out there busting their ass playing team basketball for 48 minutes, that's really all I can ask for. Does that mean I'm saying Bibby wasn't busting his ass out there? Well yeah, it does. Sorry. He was one of the last connections to the old good teams, but it's time to move on. This team wasn't going to do anything until we moved on. The Bibby trade helps. Getting rid of Ron, while having nothing to do with the old teams, is still the next logical step. Ron's the last player not named Kenny Thomas on the team that you could argue has character issues. While I'd like to see him play more without Bibby and see if any of those Bibby vs. Artest rumors were true, I'd much rather get a jump start on the NBA's emerging youth movement. Staying ahead of the Euro/fast-paced curve is why the team exploded in the early 2000's and getting a slight jump on the exciting young talent coming in could do the same.

Muff rules. http://vegaskings.blogspot.com

by Muff209 on Feb 19, 2008 10:07 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

I'm Confused

I read the linked article, and I don't see how it's an endorsement of trading Artest. Did I miss something? I still say that only a team that wants to lose gives up one of the 20-25 best players in the league for nothing. Sometimes, I think the fans on this board would prefer a harmonious team that loses to a tension-filled group that wins.

Visit sunny and beautiful Movie City USA.

by DB on Feb 19, 2008 2:30 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Which is why there are so many teams banging

down the doors to get him right? One great player does not making a winning team when he poisons the coach and the players around him. Maybe you chance him if you think he pushes you deeper into the playoffs. But when you aren't going to the playoffs anyway, why keep a guy like that? The very fact that no one else really wants him, even at the bargain basment salary he has, tells you everyone else is scared of him too. And I don't mean that in a good way.

I'll tell you one other thing. If he gets the $14 million he thinks he is worth next year, Taco Bell is on me.

by SavageBeast on Feb 19, 2008 2:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

You are Assuming that Nobody Wants Him

But we really won't know until he becomes a free agent. Even the trade rumors are just that, but I have seen his name linked to the Nuggets, Cavs, Lakers, Warriors, Spurs and other teams that escape me at the moment. If there is no interest, there's no certainly no shortage of skuttlebutt.

Even if he is not dealt before the deadline, it could be more because Petrie's price is too steep as opposed to a lack of interest.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 19, 2008 3:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

We traded Bibby

for expiring contracts. I think if there was a reasonable offer on the table for Artest, Petrie would take it. The fact of the matter is, his bad behavior on and off the court is a deterrent. Coach Karl is said to be reluctant to have him, even though the front office and players want him badly. I would imagine that there are, at most, 5 teams in the league that would consider taking Artest off our hands this season, and all of them praying it didn't blow up in their laps.

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by LeaguePassAddict on Feb 19, 2008 3:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Karl

reportedly is balking at giving up Kleiza, not taking on Artest.

Petrie probably took less than he wanted to move Bibby and he probably thinks he bought himself the luxury of being a little more demanding on this deal. Plus, as others have mentioned, Artest is a rare talent and I doubt Petrie wants to let him go for "two stale Twinkies and a rubberband ball" or "a moldy cheese sandwich."

Disclaimer: This post may be a complete and utter waste of your valuable time.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 19, 2008 3:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

He's also

a rare headcase and a serious problem child.

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by LeaguePassAddict on Feb 19, 2008 5:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Well

I think we all know how you feel after your last 30 posts on the subject.

Disclaimer: This post may be a complete and utter waste of your valuable time.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 19, 2008 8:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Pot,

I'd like you to meet kettle.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 19, 2008 9:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Cmon Sec ...

Don't use my own lines against me (pot/kettle). I think that's at least the second time I've seen it here after I used it last week. That's what I get for resorting to old cliches. I should leave that to Napear.

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by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 19, 2008 9:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

So

you're saying that you invented that phrase? My bet is I heard it before you were born, sonny.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 19, 2008 9:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

No, "Pops"

Note the word cliche.

By the way, were you alive when Abe was president?

How did Mikan compare to today's stars?

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by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 19, 2008 9:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

You make me sleepy

I'd rather look at Kayte. Good night.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 19, 2008 9:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I can understand that

I won't follow up with that great line from "The Cooler," and hopefully you won't head butt me, either :)

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by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 19, 2008 9:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Of Course

Feel free to keep it up. It's your God-given right.

I have a feeling you're going to get 30 more games to tweak the phrasing just right, though :)

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by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 19, 2008 9:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

DB

What you missed is that Artest has to be treated differently than the rest of the team. He doesn't get fined for bad behavior (screaming at the coach, calling out his teammates, skipping mandatory practice, etc.) nor does he get benched. It creates tension on the court and in the locker room. It makes the coach look bad to the other players, making the rest of the team less likely to follow his rules and plays.

What you missed is that Artest is a law unto himself, uncoachable and volatile. He needs to be traded, regardless of whether or not he plans to opt out at the end of the season.

TickTickTickTickTickTick

by LeaguePassAddict on Feb 19, 2008 3:33 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Artest

is a special talent, and NBA GM's know that. They also know he has baggage. In any case, saying "no one else wants him" is nonsense. Obviously there are a number of teams that would love to be able to put Ron Ron out on the court, and quite a few who are currently engaged in discussions with Petrie about him. It's just a question of price.

"When the Going Gets Weird, the Weird Turn Pro." (Hunter S Thompson)

by Mucho Moss on Feb 19, 2008 3:34 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

True

but what isn't a question of "price"?

Mikki Moore in the skills challenge! - LPA

by iashwash on Feb 19, 2008 3:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly!

There are many things I want that I'm not willing to pay the price for. If any GMs viewed Artest as a top 25 player, they'd offer a heck of a lot more than Kleiza. You can't honestly say a team wants a player unless they are willing to give up a valuable player. Heck, if Artest is a top 25, I'll take half price. Give me a top 50 and we'll call it a deal.

by SavageBeast on Feb 19, 2008 4:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

They are playing the game

The teams who are bidding for Ron are playoff bound and they expect us to dump him for expiring picks and garbage, and Petrie's simply not going to do that. They think they have Geoff in a corner, and this is subtle way of saying they don't.

Disclaimer: This post may be a complete and utter waste of your valuable time.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 19, 2008 9:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

As usual

Petrie is playing a bit of chicken here - and I think he is probably in the better position holding out closer to the trade deadline.

Artest clearly can be a difference maker for an upper echelon team. I suspect someone will talk themselves into the risk of Artest's personality when the clock is ticking louder.

Disclaimer: I am anti-Bibby.

by otis29 on Feb 19, 2008 4:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I've had a deep feeling

that Houston will end up with Artest if they give up Scola, Brooks, and a 1st round pick along with filler (Kirk Snyder?). Trade Machine results for those who want to see it works.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 20, 2008 2:10 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs