All Value Team, Under $2 Million Edition
The past couple of days there has been a rather spirited discussion regarding Francisco Garcia. What's his worth, value, and is he good to his mother?
I was a little startled and amazed to find that there even was an anti-Garcia camp, considering that he has been very productive (and hit some big shots) for very little money. Now I like Cisco, so I thought there was a chance that my opinion of him might be skewed.
I set forth to compare Francisco Garcia to other players in the league in his price range, as one of the first factors in determining value is knowing the cost factor. So the first criteria is that the player must be making less than $2 million a year (El Flaco will earn $1.2 million this year).
Next, the player must score at least 10 points a game or grab at least 5 boards a game or hand out at least 4 assists a game. This eliminates a couple of reasonably decent players like Hakim Warrick, Jarrett Jack and Jordan Farmar.
Also, I did not figure per 40 as I was interested in their actual contributions. My post, my rules.
I wound up finding 17 players. Here are 11-17 with their high points (in no particular order):
Jason Maxiell ($1.1M, 5.3 reb., 1.2 blk.), Linas Kleiza ($1.0M, 11.7 pt.), Josh Boone ($1.1M, 6.9 reb.), Sean Williams ($1.4M, 5.4 reb., 1.9 blk.), Al Thornton ($1.7M, 10.9 pt.), Rashad McCants ($1.8M, 14.5 pt.) and Paul Millsap ($700K, 5.8 reb.).
And now the top 10:
10 - Ronnie Brewer Brewer averages 11.8 pts. and adds 1.9 steals for $1.7M.
9 - Francisco Garcia 12.6 pts. and 1.1 stls. for only $1.2M.
8 - Jameer Nelson 11.2 pts. and 5.6 asts., barely squeaking into the field at $1.961M.
7 - Beno Udrih 12.1 pts and 1 stl. for $760K.
6 - Grant Hill Grant has already made his millions, so he signed with a contender for only $1.8M and contributes 14.8 pts. He is also at 4.9 reb., 3.2 ast., .9 stl., .8 blk.
5 - David Lee 10.3 pts. and 8.3 rebs. for the ridiculously low price of $1M. That's why we love him and that's why we can't have him.
4 - Rajon Rondo Castigated early in the season as the reason Boston would falter, Rondo has responded with 10.7 pts., 4.7 asts. and 1.7 stls. per game, more than earning his $1.4M paycheck.
3 - Danny Granger Maybe the most unheralded of the young up and comers, Granger has quietly put together 18 pts., 5.7 rebs., 1.9 stls. and 1.1 blks. He will make $1.5M this year.
2 - Kevin Martin Yes, he has his payday, which kicks in next year. But look what you're getting this year for $1.8M. 23.1 pts., 1.2 stls. The 4.6 boards? Not bad for a 2 guard. Does he need to improve in some areas to earn the jing next year? Yes. But for 2007-08 he is a feakin' cash register.
1 - Monta Ellis This does not mean that I like Ellis better than Martin. But Monta is giving the Warriors 18.9 pts. and 1.3 stls. His rebs. are close to Martin and his assists better, but the main difference is the salary - $700,000!!! He won't be this kind of value next year, but right now he is the reigning champ of value in the NBA.
The frightening result of this exercise? Not only is Garcia a great value, so are Udrih and Martin. I'm sure that if you ran value for $7-9M players that Artest would rate high, too. How can a team with this much value not make the playoffs? The answer lies at cower forward, where we have almost $21 million (that's Tim Duncan or KG money!) tied up in The Landlord (S.Williams), The Landfill (K9(woof!)), The Landlocked ('Reef), The Land With No Hands (VdM), The Land Swap (Lo.Wright), and the Land-Ho's (the late great 3-Wil and Daryl Watkins). Never have so many been paid so much to do so little.
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There's no Anti-Garcia camp.
9 - Francisco Garcia 12.6 pts. and 1.1 stls. for ONLY $1.2M.
I have asked many times, and I ask you again: What do you see him doing for his career? What do you think his potential is? Does he look like an NBA starter at this juncture to you?
What is his role/skill set that can't be replaced?
If someone says "intangibles", "alot", "myriad", or any of those murky cop-out words to describe Cisco's game, go mix Comet with bleach and huff mightily. I don't hate Cisco or his game, I think he's ordinary by NBA standards. He's neither particularly agressive, dynamic, or efficient. He just is.
Kevin McHale didn't start
Dear gangstalicious,
All fun aside, ARE YOU REALLY COMPARING GARCIA TO HOFers MCHALE AND HAVLICEK? SHUT UP ALREADY. DAMN.
Manu's Good. Corliss as well. Neither's going to the Hall. I digress though! Never once have I said that Garcia sucked. In fact I have previously said he was good. I don't hold the talk-out-yer-ass-defend-my-mancrush most of you seem to have, but he's a decent player. Yet PLENTY of players do what Cisco does. There's about 10-15 Ciscos in the league already.
He is tradeable. He's expendable. He's REPLACEABLE W/O DAMAGING TEAM CHEMISTRY. 'Nuff said...let it go
Couple things
That was for brooklyn..
Ha ha, we get it everytime
You got me on? ohh
Shout out to all of my crew, east-west, north-south
All the continent, europe, all abroad international
Bring it in, bring it in, bring it in, bring it in
Its a lot of things goin on yall
21st century is comin
20th century almost done
A lot of things have changed
A lot of things have not, mainly us
We gon get it together right? i believe that
Listen.. people be askin me all the time,
Yo mos, whats gettin ready to happen with hip-hop?
(where do you think hip-hop is goin? )
I tell em, you know whats gonna happen with hip-hop?
Whatevers happening with us
If we smoked out, hip-hop is gonna be smoked out
If we doin alright, hip-hop is gonna be doin alright
People talk about hip-hop like its some giant livin in the hillside
Nice...
I've read on here before claiming your from HJ. i've had my doubts, but nice work...from one Metro (the old metro) man to another~
Not quite sure how it is relevant to the thread, but good nonetheless-
6614 14th ave sucka
The Old Metro
It isn't relevant to the thread IMO. But that hasn't stopped anybody else, and since refugee is so taken to callin me gangstalicious, I thought I would point out that Mos is the fellow who voices the character (a good voiceover at that). </thread flame over>
They...
Im talkin about the mid 90's Glory days of hoops (And into the 2k)
Tnhats what I meant by the good ol Metro Days
Now you know why I didn't play HS
Oh man..
You sir
Writing "The single most unimaginative and stupid post I have seen on on StR yet" is not an acceptable use of StR. This is your warning. Stop being a jackass or leave.
What is your point?
Neither
In retrospect I was perhaps too harsh. Blame my lack of sleep :)
Who cares
You say he is partial to Garcia, but don't say who you would place at #9 on his list in his absence?
I will agree with you that intangibles are somewhat overrated when evaluating a player. But I will also say that section left out the defensive side of the ball. And Garcia is a guy I always want to see on the court in the last two or three minutes of a close game, due to his defense and his ability to hit the three.
Those things have value, and the kid is improving as well. I'm not sure anyone here thinks he's going to be an All-Star, but he's a great ancillary piece for the future. And he's a damn bargain.
To kingstalkrefugee
Let's get off Garcia and take a guy that we would be neutral on - say Danny Granger. His numbers and contributions are fantastic for a guy that makes $1.5 million, especially when you compare him to teammate Mike Dunleavy, who is at 17.5 pt., 5.5 reb., 3.4 ast. and 1.1 stl. for $8.2 million. Not bad numbers. Granger is known as the better defensive player of the two. Now who is the better value?
Now let's take that same logic and put Garcia against his teammates. Brad Miller is a much larger contributor than Cisco, but because Garcia is at $1.2M and Miller is at $10.5M most people would probably say that Garcia is a good value and that Miller is no more than a fair value. Using that logic up and down the Kings roster, I can only find Udrih and Martin as better values than Garcia. Both Martin and Udrih will come off that list next year as a result of their impending paydays. Garcia will mike a pinch under $2M next year, a great value.
I respect that you disagree with me, ktr. You have a right to your opinion. But so far (as it pertains to Garcia) you have given me nothing to respect the argument itself. It's OK if it's because you just don't like him. But if your opinion is of a statistical and/or performance nature than please provide me with the data to back your claim (God, I sound like Spock!). I learn a lot from everyone the people here at StR almost every day. If Cisco is not a good value then please tell me who is so that I may start appreciating that player instead.
Psst
I almost took your challenge...
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."~Benjamin Disraeli
So,
Section
Nice
If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts. - Albert Einstein
Section that's an interesting list
Grant Hill is an interesting point. In his prime vs Lebron, and this is only MY opinion, I'd take Grant Hill.
Lee plays on a terrible team that enhances his strengths because everyone else on the Knicks front line sucks at anything defense/rebounding relating.
You're right about Granger being underrated. Until you posted those numbers I didn't know he was posting THOSE kind of numbers. That being said he's making LJL job harder & harder by not trading JO.
As far as Kevin is concerned he is still cheap this season (a fact some may have forgotten). And he's damn productive for the money his extension is worth too.
Monta Ellis should be the MIP. The problem is that he got it last year undeservedly. Which is just another highlight of the stupidity of how awards are awarded.
Thanks for the explanation
Don't always have time^^
Last Paragraph
It's pretty clear that Garcia has replaced Salmons in the end-of-game lineup that has Miller, Martin, Udrih and Artest as the core. His ability to hit the three and contribute in other ways really adds value to that lineup.
It really becomes clear as well why Petrie needed to get a player like Kleiza back if he had dealt Artest. Otherwise you now have two big holes in the lineup and the team sinks into obscurity rather rapidly. And he also had to try to get rid of Kenny Thomas in exchange for an expiring at the same time.
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 24, 2008 8:25 AM PST reply actions
Dang coolcat
If we could manage to hold this team together and keep them healthy and happy until enough money frees up to get a quality 4,we would be able to beat ANY team on any given night.
Section, the land paragraph was the funniest thing I have read in weeks. I may very well have that embroidered and put over my front door instead of the "Don't Mess With LPA" sign.
Savage
What a waste
Maybe we could get someone to stencil it onto the coffee table.
by LeaguePassAddict on Feb 24, 2008 1:26 PM PST up reply actions
Very nicely done
This is another argument
The Only Problem
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 24, 2008 12:36 PM PST up reply actions
Just to Clarify
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 24, 2008 12:38 PM PST up reply actions
Agreed,
This is a 2 way argument
The fact is Ron is a "cheap" superstar. If it were only on terms of money I'd say sign the guy up. You might want to consider this fact too: I consider Martin's extension to be overpayment of worth. I'm not spending alot of time arguing it because of these 3 reasons:
- Kevin is becoming the face of the franchise
- He's better in certain area's than last season
- He's young enough, and talented enough, to become better in different area's of his game to justify the extension
As far as cheap talent Beno won't stay that cheap. Somebody will offer him the Mid Level, because Jason Kapono got it, and Beno is far more effective than Kapono was a year ago, and it might as well be the Kings. I've always hoped there wouldn't be enough dis-incentives from keeping that happening (since about mid-December or so). Luxury tax is a strong dis-incentive after all.
Cheap Talent
I will not gloat. I will not gloat...
Yep, Refugee
He doesnt suck.
Garcia is big shot, not big game.
He's a journeyman player, not your 6th man. He's not superior against against superior opponents. He's Not a HOFer, not a savior. NOT a star.
As long as you are willing to back that up
And just a sa follow-up, Spanky
Not only that but to take it a step further
As good as Kevin Martin is, and he is my favorite player on the Kings without a doubt (and has been for several years now), then I would be a homer to say Kevin Martin is the best player on the team. He's not because his defense isn't up to snuff. His ball handling and passing need work. Do I think he can improve it? I think there's a strong chance he can. The kid works hard, and loves to play. He doesn't get in trouble, and has things you can't teach (like getting to the line alot or a solid shot from deep or freaky athleticism that works well as a finisher).
I think the bigger question with Artest vs Martin is style. Do the Kings as a team benefit from playing a deliberate half-court style that suits Artest or an up-tempo more shots offense than benefits Martin? I prefer uptempo offense myself. And a sooner than later exit strategy in regards to Ron.

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