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All Value Team, Under $2 Million Edition

The past couple of days there has been a rather spirited discussion regarding Francisco Garcia. What's his worth, value, and is he good to his mother?

I was a little startled and amazed to find that there even was an anti-Garcia camp, considering that he has been very productive (and hit some big shots) for very little money. Now I like Cisco, so I thought there was a chance that my opinion of him might be skewed.

I set forth to compare Francisco Garcia to other players in the league in his price range, as one of the first factors in determining value is knowing the cost factor. So the first criteria is that the player must be making less than $2 million a year (El Flaco will earn $1.2 million this year).

Next, the player must score at least 10 points a game or grab at least 5 boards a game or hand out at least 4 assists a game. This eliminates a couple of reasonably decent players like Hakim Warrick, Jarrett Jack and Jordan Farmar.

Also, I did not figure per 40 as I was interested in their actual contributions. My post, my rules.

I wound up finding 17 players. Here are 11-17 with their high points (in no particular order):

Jason Maxiell ($1.1M, 5.3 reb., 1.2 blk.), Linas Kleiza ($1.0M, 11.7 pt.), Josh Boone ($1.1M, 6.9 reb.), Sean Williams ($1.4M, 5.4 reb., 1.9 blk.), Al Thornton ($1.7M, 10.9 pt.), Rashad McCants ($1.8M, 14.5 pt.) and Paul Millsap ($700K, 5.8 reb.).

And now the top 10:

10 - Ronnie Brewer  Brewer averages 11.8 pts. and adds 1.9 steals for $1.7M.

9 - Francisco Garcia  12.6 pts. and 1.1 stls. for only $1.2M.

8 - Jameer Nelson  11.2 pts. and 5.6 asts., barely squeaking into the field at $1.961M.

7 - Beno Udrih  12.1 pts and 1 stl. for $760K.

6 - Grant Hill  Grant has already made his millions, so he signed with a contender for only $1.8M and contributes 14.8 pts. He is also at 4.9 reb., 3.2 ast., .9 stl., .8 blk.

5 - David Lee  10.3 pts. and 8.3 rebs. for the ridiculously low price of $1M. That's why we love him and that's why we can't have him.

4 - Rajon Rondo  Castigated early in the season as the reason Boston would falter, Rondo has responded with 10.7 pts., 4.7 asts. and 1.7 stls. per game, more than earning his $1.4M paycheck.

3 - Danny Granger  Maybe the most unheralded of the young up and comers, Granger has quietly put together 18 pts., 5.7 rebs., 1.9 stls. and 1.1 blks. He will make $1.5M this year.

2 - Kevin Martin  Yes, he has his payday, which kicks in next year. But look what you're getting this year for $1.8M. 23.1 pts., 1.2 stls. The 4.6 boards? Not bad for a 2 guard. Does he need to improve in some areas to earn the jing next year? Yes. But for 2007-08 he is a feakin' cash register.

1 - Monta Ellis  This does not mean that I like Ellis better than Martin. But Monta is giving the Warriors 18.9 pts. and 1.3 stls. His rebs. are close to Martin and his assists better, but the main difference is the salary - $700,000!!! He won't be this kind of value next year, but right now he is the reigning champ of value in the NBA.

The frightening result of this exercise? Not only is Garcia a great value, so are Udrih and Martin. I'm sure that if you ran value for $7-9M players that Artest would rate high, too. How can a team with this much value not make the playoffs? The answer lies at cower forward, where we have almost $21 million (that's Tim Duncan or KG money!) tied up in The Landlord (S.Williams), The Landfill (K9(woof!)), The Landlocked ('Reef), The Land With No Hands (VdM), The Land Swap (Lo.Wright), and the Land-Ho's (the late great 3-Wil and Daryl Watkins). Never have so many been paid so much to do so little.

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There's no Anti-Garcia camp.
I just think you overestimate his value as a player, forget the money. Your partiality betrays you with:

9 - Francisco Garcia  12.6 pts. and 1.1 stls. for ONLY $1.2M.

I have asked many times, and I ask you again: What do you see him doing for his career? What do you think his potential is? Does he look like an NBA starter at this juncture to you?

What is his role/skill set that can't be replaced?

If someone says "intangibles", "alot", "myriad",  or any of those murky cop-out words to describe Cisco's game, go mix Comet with bleach and huff mightily. I don't hate Cisco or his game, I think he's ordinary by NBA standards. He's neither particularly agressive, dynamic, or efficient. He just is.

The wise man tells you Where you have fallen And where you yet may fall - Invaluable secrets! The world may hate him. But good men love him.

by Psychrates on Feb 24, 2008 1:48 AM PST reply actions  

Kevin McHale didn't start
for the 1st half of his career on the 80's celtics. He must suck. John Havlichek, another guy who came off the bench of half his career on the Celtics in the 60's, musta sucked too. Manu Ginobili, a former starter, is more effective off the bench. Corliss Williamson made a career out of being a borderline starter/bench player. Must I go on?
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 24, 2008 2:50 AM PST up reply actions  

Dear gangstalicious,
I didn't see nothin' in that hospital room. Could you send me more drawz from the Section214 collection? Me and my homiez rock that gear like like it was hubba on the 1st.

All fun aside, ARE YOU REALLY COMPARING GARCIA TO HOFers MCHALE AND HAVLICEK? SHUT UP ALREADY. DAMN.

Manu's Good. Corliss as well. Neither's going to the Hall. I digress though! Never once have I said that Garcia sucked. In fact I have previously said he was good. I don't hold the talk-out-yer-ass-defend-my-mancrush most of you seem to have, but he's a decent player. Yet PLENTY of players do what Cisco does. There's about 10-15 Ciscos in the league already.

He is tradeable. He's expendable. He's REPLACEABLE W/O DAMAGING TEAM CHEMISTRY. 'Nuff said...let it go

The wise man tells you Where you have fallen And where you yet may fall - Invaluable secrets! The world may hate him. But good men love him.

by Psychrates on Feb 24, 2008 7:57 AM PST up reply actions  

Couple things
If you think calling me a character, who was in the closet and made a claim to fame on being something he wasn't, hurts my feelings, such as gangstalicious makes me angry think again. Rather some wisdom from my man Mos:

Ooh-ooooooooooohhhh, ooh-ooooooooooooooohh-wheeeee!!!
That was for brooklyn..
Ha ha, we get it everytime
You got me on? ohh
Shout out to all of my crew, east-west, north-south
All the continent, europe, all abroad international
Bring it in, bring it in, bring it in, bring it in
Its a lot of things goin on yall
21st century is comin
20th century almost done
A lot of things have changed
A lot of things have not, mainly us
We gon get it together right? i believe that
Listen.. people be askin me all the time,
Yo mos, whats gettin ready to happen with hip-hop?
(where do you think hip-hop is goin? )
I tell em, you know whats gonna happen with hip-hop?
Whatevers happening with us
If we smoked out, hip-hop is gonna be smoked out
If we doin alright, hip-hop is gonna be doin alright
People talk about hip-hop like its some giant livin in the hillside
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 24, 2008 10:38 AM PST up reply actions  

Nice...
Work on busting out the opening track from "Black on Both Sides"!!

I've read on here before claiming your from HJ. i've had my doubts, but nice work...from one Metro (the old metro) man to another~

Not quite sure how it is relevant to the thread, but good nonetheless-

by Hoops916 on Feb 24, 2008 10:48 AM PST up reply actions  

6614 14th ave sucka
And I also went to Sac High
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 24, 2008 11:06 AM PST up reply actions  

The Old Metro
How old are we talking? 50 years ago? I'm from Rosemont, and up until 2000 I think, kids from Rosemont had to go to HJ as it was the closest High School. I doubt Rosemont is that nice today. The only advantage is it probably doesn't have metal detectors yet.

It isn't relevant to the thread IMO. But that hasn't stopped anybody else, and since refugee is so taken to callin me gangstalicious, I thought I would point out that Mos is the fellow who voices the character (a good voiceover at that). </thread flame over>

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 24, 2008 11:14 AM PST up reply actions  

They...
Changed the good ol Metro a few years back. It used to be far and away the best hoops league in the City. Im talkin about the Sac High/Johnson/Burbank/Kennedy/CB/Jesuit/McClatchy Days.

Im talkin about the mid 90's Glory days of hoops (And into the 2k)

Tnhats what I meant by the good ol Metro Days

by Hoops916 on Feb 24, 2008 12:41 PM PST up reply actions  

Now you know why I didn't play HS
ball because if it had been some sucky ass league somewhere else I would have played.
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 24, 2008 12:46 PM PST up reply actions  

Oh man..
The single most unimaginative and stupid post I have seen on on StR yet. I feel bad for you.
The wise man tells you Where you have fallen And where you yet may fall - Invaluable secrets! The world may hate him. But good men love him.

by Psychrates on Feb 24, 2008 7:39 PM PST up reply actions  

You sir
... are on the threshold of meeting the banhammer.

Writing "The single most unimaginative and stupid post I have seen on on StR yet" is not an acceptable use of StR. This is your warning. Stop being a jackass or leave.

by Tom Ziller on Feb 25, 2008 11:41 AM PST up reply actions  

What is your point?
You make absolutely no sense.  Your time at Kingstalk must have addled your brain.

by thelettere on Feb 24, 2008 4:59 PM PST up reply actions  

Was
that directed at myself or Pookey?

by Hoops916 on Feb 24, 2008 7:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Neither
KingsTalkRefugee is whom I was addressing (understandable error - setup sometimes makes it difficult to figure out what was a response to what.  )

In retrospect I was perhaps too harsh.  Blame my lack of sleep :)

by thelettere on Feb 26, 2008 2:20 AM PST up reply actions  

Who cares
Whether he starts or not? It's completely unimportant in respect to a player's value to a team.

You say he is partial to Garcia, but don't say who you would place at #9 on his list in his absence?

I will agree with you that intangibles are somewhat overrated when evaluating a player. But I will also say that section left out the defensive side of the ball. And Garcia is a guy I always want to see on the court in the last two or three minutes of a close game, due to his defense and his ability to hit the three.

Those things have value, and the kid is improving as well. I'm not sure anyone here thinks he's going to be an All-Star, but he's a great ancillary piece for the future. And he's a damn bargain.

Mikki Moore - WNBA Hair, WNBA Body, WNBA Talent

by otis29 on Feb 24, 2008 6:30 AM PST up reply actions  

To kingstalkrefugee
How can you determine something's value without knowing the cost (items of sentimental value notwithstanding)? I can't "forget the money." That's a critical component to the exercise.

Let's get off Garcia and take a guy that we would be neutral on - say Danny Granger. His numbers and contributions are fantastic for a guy that makes $1.5 million, especially when you compare him to teammate Mike Dunleavy, who is at 17.5 pt., 5.5 reb., 3.4 ast. and 1.1 stl. for $8.2 million. Not bad numbers. Granger is known as the better defensive player of the two. Now who is the better value?

Now let's take that same logic and put Garcia against his teammates. Brad Miller is a much larger contributor than Cisco, but because Garcia is at $1.2M and Miller is at $10.5M most people would probably say that Garcia is a good value and that Miller is no more than a fair value. Using that logic up and down the Kings roster, I can only find Udrih and Martin as better values than Garcia. Both Martin and Udrih will come off that list next year as a result of their impending paydays. Garcia will mike a pinch under $2M next year, a great value.

I respect that you disagree with me, ktr. You have a right to your opinion. But so far (as it pertains to Garcia) you have given me nothing to respect the argument itself. It's OK if it's because you just don't like him. But if your opinion is of a statistical and/or performance nature than please provide me with the data to back your claim (God, I sound like Spock!). I learn a lot from everyone the people here at StR almost every day. If Cisco is not a good value then please tell me who is so that I may start appreciating that player instead.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 24, 2008 10:13 AM PST up reply actions  

Psst
Anything that challenges the power of Ron Artest must be eliminated. Psssttttt get the memo yet?
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 24, 2008 10:40 AM PST up reply actions  

I almost took your challenge...
 then I remembered:
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."~Benjamin Disraeli
The wise man tells you Where you have fallen And where you yet may fall - Invaluable secrets! The world may hate him. But good men love him.

by Psychrates on Feb 24, 2008 5:05 PM PST up reply actions  

So,
it's just a matter of your opinion based on your personal feelings. Fair enough. I can accept that. Hell, I can respect that. Do you think that gate might possibly swing both ways?
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 24, 2008 5:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Section
I don't know how it even got this far. I'm here to discuss the game and it's players, not my basketball IQ, whether I've "played the game" or resort to stathead tactics with factoids galore. I made a comment on a game thread, and the peanut gallery starts calling names(Hi Otis, Pook, and KK). I've gone out of my way to not be offensive to Garcia. I've stated my personal opinion on his game, and not his person. If I don't appreciate his game, is it not enough to leave it be? Your opinion IS respected, even if I don't necesarily agree with it.
The wise man tells you Where you have fallen And where you yet may fall - Invaluable secrets! The world may hate him. But good men love him.

by Psychrates on Feb 24, 2008 7:27 PM PST up reply actions  

Nice
I don't think I've ever seen that quote come up on a message board previously.  You know, except for hundreds of times from those who can't really back up their nonsensical ramblings.

If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts. - Albert Einstein

Mikki Moore - WNBA Hair, WNBA Body, WNBA Talent

by otis29 on Feb 24, 2008 5:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Section that's an interesting list
I happen to think it's well compiled, but since I'm known to kiss your ass, and everything associated with it, I can't be trusted for the following comments.

Grant Hill is an interesting point. In his prime vs Lebron, and this is only MY opinion, I'd take Grant Hill.

Lee plays on a terrible team that enhances his strengths because everyone else on the Knicks front line sucks at anything defense/rebounding relating.

You're right about Granger being underrated. Until you posted those numbers I didn't know he was posting THOSE kind of numbers. That being said he's making LJL job harder & harder by not trading JO.

As far as Kevin is concerned he is still cheap this season (a fact some may have forgotten). And he's damn productive for the money his extension is worth too.

Monta Ellis should be the MIP. The problem is that he got it last year undeservedly. Which is just another highlight of the stupidity of how awards are awarded.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 24, 2008 2:55 AM PST reply actions  

The Acronyms
VdM?

LJL?

Should I know what those mean? Cuz I don't.

by Spiegel on Feb 24, 2008 5:06 AM PST reply actions  

Explanation
VdM = Venus de Mikki (no hands!)

LJL = Larry Joe Legend (Larry Bird)

by Tom Ziller on Feb 24, 2008 9:13 AM PST up reply actions  

Thanks for the explanation
I forget that people don't always have read other stuff on blogs elsewhere.
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 25, 2008 1:59 PM PST up reply actions  

Don't always have time^^
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 25, 2008 2:00 PM PST up reply actions  

Last Paragraph
Is where you nailed it. Power forward is the black hole of this team, the anchor that holds us down. We can fight all we want about Miller and Artest and Udrih and Martin and Salmons and Garcia, etc., but you can at least make positive arguments about the contributions of those guys.

It's pretty clear that Garcia has replaced Salmons in the end-of-game lineup that has Miller, Martin, Udrih and Artest as the core. His ability to hit the three and contribute in other ways really adds value to that lineup.

It really becomes clear as well why Petrie needed to get a player like Kleiza back if he had dealt Artest. Otherwise you now have two big holes in the lineup and the team sinks into obscurity rather rapidly. And he also had to try to get rid of Kenny Thomas in exchange for an expiring at the same time.

Disclaimer: This post may be a complete and utter waste of your valuable time.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 24, 2008 8:25 AM PST reply actions  

Dang coolcat
I kept reading your post expecting to disagree with something and got to the end still nodding. Let's all just agree that with the way Brad is playing right now (albeit a little overpaid) we have a dagn good set of players 1-3, and5-6.

If we could manage to hold this team together and keep them healthy and happy until enough money frees up to get a quality 4,we would be able to beat ANY team on any given night.

Section, the land paragraph was the funniest thing I have read in weeks. I may very well have that embroidered and put over my front door instead of the "Don't Mess With LPA" sign.

by SavageBeast on Feb 24, 2008 9:34 AM PST up reply actions  

Savage
Section, the land paragraph was the funniest thing I have read in weeks. I may very well have that embroidered and put over my front door instead of the "Don't Mess With LPA" sign.
Hang that, and the Land bit, and a poll for readers to vote on. You'll see which is more valuable.
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 24, 2008 11:20 AM PST up reply actions  

What a waste
After you spent so much time embroidering that sign, and it matches the living room sofa so well.

Maybe we could get someone to stencil it onto the coffee table.

TickTickTickTickTickTick

by LeaguePassAddict on Feb 24, 2008 1:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Very nicely done
The "Land" paragraph was effing hysterical.

by Brinson on Feb 24, 2008 9:58 AM PST reply actions  

This is another argument
 in my humble opinion, and of course I speak only for myself, as a Ron Artest hater, that I think speaks against keeping Ron Artest long term on a big money deal. Petrie is far more effective finding cheaper fringe talent than he is building around a team around established stars.
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 24, 2008 12:21 PM PST reply actions  

The Only Problem
"Cheaper fringe talent" can only take you so far. If you start "cheaper fringe talent" at all five spots, the only thing you're going to be competing on is value points. Only losers frame the discussion totally on things like win per dollar.
Disclaimer: This post may be a complete and utter waste of your valuable time.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 24, 2008 12:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Just to Clarify
Losers = losing teams
Disclaimer: This post may be a complete and utter waste of your valuable time.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 24, 2008 12:38 PM PST up reply actions  

Agreed,
in as much as the reason that you have to attain good value players is so that you can take the savings and then pay the premium price for the top players.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 24, 2008 12:58 PM PST up reply actions  

This is a 2 way argument
And one I'm not willing to go full tilt with you on. You want certain things youre way on this argument, and I wasn't arguing against premium talent in any way. I wasn't even arguing against Ron Artest. (In terms of dollars for production he's high on that list.)

The fact is Ron is a "cheap" superstar. If it were only on terms of money I'd say sign the guy up. You might want to consider this fact too: I consider Martin's extension to be overpayment of worth. I'm not spending alot of time arguing it because of these 3 reasons:

  1. Kevin is becoming the face of the franchise
  2. He's better in certain area's than last season
  3. He's young enough, and talented enough, to become better in different area's of his game to justify the extension

I think Ron Artest is not a player I'd pay 10 million a year. A player like Martin is a player I'd want to pay 10 million a year (not because I like him; which I do) because of his consistent improvement. He isn't Kobe, but that's why Kobe is a Hall of Fame player. Again, I'm not saying Kevin is a Hall type player, but I'm saying he works hard in that way and doesn't need to say anything to anybody about it. It's just who he is. That's why I feel more comfortable building around Kevin than Ron.

As far as cheap talent Beno won't stay that cheap. Somebody will offer him the Mid Level, because Jason Kapono got it, and Beno is far more effective than Kapono was a year ago, and it might as well be the Kings. I've always hoped there wouldn't be enough dis-incentives from keeping that happening (since about mid-December or so). Luxury tax is a strong dis-incentive after all.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 24, 2008 1:08 PM PST up reply actions  

Cheap Talent
The only point in having cheap talent, is that it allows you to afford superstar talent at 1-2 positions.  As mentioned in the main article, wasting that money on average (at best) players making 5-10 mil is a horrible use of resources, especially in a league with a salary cap.

by chri5 on Feb 24, 2008 1:22 PM PST reply actions  

I will not gloat. I will not gloat...
Anyone seen the line for Garcia tonight?
The wise man tells you Where you have fallen And where you yet may fall - Invaluable secrets! The world may hate him. But good men love him.

by Psychrates on Feb 24, 2008 5:24 PM PST reply actions  

Yep, Refugee
I guess you must be right. Garcia had a bad game so he must suck. You're totally vailidated. In fact based on the statistic that every player has bad nights they must all suck. So you go right ahead and gloat in your superior wisdom.

by SavageBeast on Feb 24, 2008 6:52 PM PST up reply actions  

He doesnt suck.
 We suck every game in a #9 jersey.

Garcia is big shot, not big game.
He's a journeyman player, not your 6th man. He's not superior against against superior opponents. He's Not a HOFer, not a savior. NOT a star.

The wise man tells you Where you have fallen And where you yet may fall - Invaluable secrets! The world may hate him. But good men love him.

by Psychrates on Feb 24, 2008 7:13 PM PST up reply actions  

As long as you are willing to back that up
with stats. Oh, wait that's right, you don't believe in them. And FYI, Garcia is a third year player, so even your journeyman label doesn't stick. I think you're better off to just admit you don't like the guy and move on instead of trying to pretend you are making a statement of fact.

by SavageBeast on Feb 24, 2008 7:23 PM PST up reply actions  

And just a sa follow-up, Spanky
who ever said he was a hall of famer or a star? What we said was that he was a sixth man. See many of those in the hall of fame? B-Jax was one of the best 6th men this team has ever had, that doesn't make him a star, it makes him a valuable addition. In fact a requirement to make it to a ring.

by SavageBeast on Feb 24, 2008 7:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Not only that but to take it a step further
You have to have a core that is filled with top tier talent. When's the last time Artest was part of a core that had championship material? And even then did he perform that well in the playoffs when he's gotten there? I just think it's easy to point out other people's faults without recognizing it in someone you like.

As good as Kevin Martin is, and he is my favorite player on the Kings without a doubt (and has been for several years now), then I would be a homer to say Kevin Martin is the best player on the team. He's not because his defense isn't up to snuff. His ball handling and passing need work. Do I think he can improve it? I think there's a strong chance he can. The kid works hard, and loves to play. He doesn't get in trouble, and has things you can't teach (like getting to the line alot or a solid shot from deep or freaky athleticism that works well as a finisher).

I think the bigger question with Artest vs Martin is style. Do the Kings as a team benefit from playing a deliberate half-court style that suits Artest or an up-tempo more shots offense than benefits Martin? I prefer uptempo offense myself. And a sooner than later exit strategy in regards to Ron.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 26, 2008 2:05 AM PST up reply actions  

Agreed +1
Martin could also flourish in a half court set...if they would run some Reggie Miller/Rip Hamilton double screens for him.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 26, 2008 7:12 AM PST up reply actions  

I agree
The problem is who sets those picks?
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 26, 2008 7:18 AM PST up reply actions  

Our new player -
Bradspence Mikkisheldonron
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 26, 2008 8:32 AM PST up reply actions  

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