BMiller

by KingsYesterdayTodayTomorrow on Mar 12, 2008 10:35 AM PDT Comment 29 comments

Anyone here want to step up and defend Brad Miller? I mean he's not an enforcer or anything but there are only a couple of those guys in the league. Most teams get thier tough play from the PF position. He scores in the top ten, rebounds in the top ten and passes/runs the half-court offense like no other Center.

Heh?

(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)

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nice season

Brad has had a nice season. He is clearly running on fumes lately, however. I'm not certain if it is just the length of the season, a collection of small injuries adding up to physical fatigue, or just plain mental fatigue. Regardless, I hope he finishes strong. I'd hate to see poor play late in the season take away from the the very good season that he has put together.

by Kusian on Mar 12, 2008 10:54 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Love what Brad has done this year.

Like Kusian, I just hope he can finish what he started, that being a season that will have exceeded everyone's expectations.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Mar 12, 2008 10:57 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Defend BMiller?

He scores in the top ten, rebounds in the top ten and passes/runs the half-court offense like no other Center.

I think you just did.

But I agree with Section and Kusian. He needs an energy drink, a bowl of Wheaties, or some of Artest's crazy pills, because his energy seems to be somewhere between AAA battery and appliance lightbulb. It's there, but nowhere near the level we need.

TickTickTickTickTickTick

by LeaguePassAddict on Mar 12, 2008 11:19 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

He can't defend himself

and that is the problem. scoring isn't everything. on a team without a shotblocker at the 4 of the 5, brad is a huge liability. the team as a whole is not a great defending team, but it gets magnified with the lack of a shot blocker.

what i hate about miller (besides everything) is he said he was going to be more aggressive this year and talked a lot of tough guy talk at the beginning of the year. i don't have a problem with that except for the fact that he turned more into a thug than a physical player. you can't be physical shooting 15-18ft jumpers. he gets abused by average centers in this league.

we all seem to fall in love with him when he throws up 20 and 10, the problem is, those numbers are against the grizzlies, hawks, heat and other crappy teams. then he disappears against the clippers (a crappy team, however with an improving center) the jazz, rockets, blazers, lakers, celtics, pistons, etc. now i am not saying he doesn't throw up the occasional good game against these teams, but he is by no means an elite center, but he is getting paid more than he is worth right now.

i understand that at the time of the contract signing, he probably was worth it, but it seems his interest in the game has diminished while he interest in hunting and eating and NOT working out or NOT leading verbally or non-verbally has gone way up.

its not like he is a developing young player either, where we understand the ups and downs he may have, such as hawes. miller has been a all-star and has actually played at a high level in this league. but that had a lot to do with the talent around him which made him better. with the talent we have now, he is in no way making them better, which is what a leader does.

as far as i am concerned, the quicker him and his salary is gone, the better for the team.

by Cynema the Band on Mar 12, 2008 1:18 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Interesting

How he is considered to be so darned sucky, but his plus/minus numbers tell us something different:

Adjusted plus/minus (Brad is 13th in the NBA):
http://basketballvalue.com/topplayers.php?year=2007-2008

This is a category he generally excels in, which tells me that the Kings are a better team when he's on the floor. Much of that is due to the fact the guy is one of the only Kings that sets a decent screen on offense.

Additionally, I believe he is top-5 in scoring, top-10 in rebounding, and #1 in assists per game by a center in the NBA.

I'll admit, he has struggled recently, but that doesn't erase his stellar play for 90% of the season so far.

by otis29 on Mar 12, 2008 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I disagree

Miller adds a ton to this team. His offensive skills help everyone, especially Martin. And he's rebounded better than he has in a long time this season.

Like everyone else says above, he's had a good season which is slipping into Bolivian. If he can tough it out (Theus is asking for 12 more games), he can crown a successful comeback, I think.

by Ziller on Mar 12, 2008 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

agree with TZ & Otis

Spot on replies guys. Brad more than any other King makes others better. I'm certainly not going to make the case that he is a stellar defender: He's not. But his defense and rebounding are both significantly better this year. With respect NBA Officials..., I think your take just doesn't hold up to the facts or the stats on the ground.

by Kusian on Mar 12, 2008 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

stats

first of all, the only stat that matters is win/loses. i don't care about his plus/minus and all of that other garbage. if you want to say he has improved from last year, i would ask this question, could he have been worse than last year? where else was he going to go? you guys tell me his defense and rebounding is better, but i submit that our starting center has not helped this team hold anybody under 100 pts for what...the last 15+ games. if we are talking one on one defense, who is he going up against on a nightly basis that we would consider a great center? hell even kaman kills him everytime in stats, if that's what you want to look at.

my point is he shows up against the mediocre to crappy teams and disappears against the elite in the league. againt that is not to say he doesn't break out and have a good game every once in a while against the elite. but he lacks consistency for what we are paying him, now i believe the highest on the team. and he is not a leader, which no one has yet to dispute, or is he a "go to" guy in the clutch.

he is an average center at best and i hope hawes continues to grow because he is what brad miller WAS in the past, before the contract. brad can't post up, he can't drive to the hole, if his jumper isn't falling then he seems to take games off. great he sets screens, we are paying a hell of a lot of money for screens these days. as for martin benefiting from millers screens, martin in unguardable off of the dribble. he has turned into a savy vet with his moves to be able to cause contact and get to the line. that is not because of miller.

miller's time is up here and the sooner we move on the better we will be. he helped us a few years back, but since then he has done nothing but decline from what the contact said he ought to do. split the time between hawes and miller and hopefully billy king surfaces somewhere to take another overpriced player off of our hands.

by Cynema the Band on Mar 12, 2008 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

wow.

"the only stat that matters is wins/loses". dude, it's not brad miller's fault that he's not playing with peja, c-webb, bibby, bjax, christie and divac any more. and you say that he was worth it when we initially picked him up. well his numbers are very similar to his first season here! there's also something called stability. brad miller's first year here, we had 4 starters start 81 games or more! i'm pretty sure that helps with the wins/loses. after brad miller, whose started every game but 2, mikki moore has the next most starts. and mikki's gotta be one of the worst front court starters in the nba! besides these 2, only one other starter (udrih) has a chance to go above 60 starts. brad miller is NOT the reason for the inconsistency of this team. and you say he disappears against a lot of the good teams. well a lot of the good teams are the teams we beat! so i'm not so sure that his bad games are big reasons why we lose games.

...an easy slam dunk layup. -clippers announcer

by kingsfaninjapan on Mar 12, 2008 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

missing point

maybe i didn't explain myself as well as i should have. i pointed out that during "the golden years" with webb, peja, vlade, etc., miller had the luxury of those players talents to make him better. and again, back then he played with heart and ambition because he was on a winning team and had dreams of winning a title. now he knows they aren't going anywhere and decides to take games off. see randy moss. who is a great talent, but needs leaders around him and a winning environment. now before you come out of your chair and start writing all sorts of nasty things to me, i am in no way comparing the personalities of the two. but the similarities in play are there. when things are good, they play well, when things are bad they disappear.

now to my points of leadership, which haven't been disputed yet. below is a link to the kings' salaries. take a look at who is on top and what is still owed to him. also, i have not read any disputes as to my points about getting rid of him. and here is why i think they should get rid of him. he is only going to decline in contributing to this team as the years go by and as his salary goes up. so with him playing so well (subjective) maybe someone might want to pick up his salary. now if he was playing so well, i would think it wouldn't be too difficult to move him. i recognize he probably would have been moved if GP didn't insist on the trading team taking K9. but if he was such a leader, why all of the trade talk during the deadline? if he is such a leader why is he declining as the year is going on?

"and you say he disappears against a lot of the good teams. well a lot of the good teams are the teams we beat! so i'm not so sure that his bad games are big reasons why we lose games." you have also just made my point in this sentence. we are talking about a player making $11.5m this year, $11.375m next year and $12.250m the next and he isn't the reason why we are beating these good teams? he is the highest paid player on this team, he needs to step up and be "A" reason why we are beating these teams. i won't even say he needs to be "the" reason, i think we all know that ain't going to happen.

basically i don't want the highest paid player on my team just fitting in. i don't want the veteran on my team getting tired as the season goes on. brad is a good player, not great, or even better than just "good". he is aging and declining and it is time for him to go too.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/sacramento.htm

by Cynema the Band on Mar 13, 2008 6:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Closing the loop

Your points regarding age and salary are well taken. If Brad is earning the MLE there would probably be no salary issue. And if he were 25 years old we might consider him as part of our future. But he is too old and too expensive for where we are headed.

That said, he has been a big positive for this year. Artest has missed 19 games, Martin 18, Bibby has missed all but 14 games before being traded. Miller? 2 games, making him the most consistent contributor on the team this year (and that's including his last few crappy games).

So while I agree that Brad is not part of our future and that he is overpaid, it does not change the fact that night in and night out he has delivered more for the 2007-08 Kings than anyone else on the roster, and he has certainly exceeded all expectations (granted, he lowered the bar himself with his lethargic play in 2006-07).

Here's the rub. He may be untradeable right now. He will still have two years on his contract after this year, and most teams won't trade for overpaid yet talented players unless they have a short term need, such as a playoff run (see Atlanta Hawks). So while I agree with your notion of trading Brad (given the fact that he is not a part of our future), the question is how do you trade him? If it were that easy K9(woof!) would be inhabiting another kennel by now.

Again, good points. Doesn't change what Brad has contributed this year.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Mar 13, 2008 8:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

OK

good explanations. i can agree with you on a lot of these points. of course brad miller is not part of the future of this team, but at the same time i don't think he's hurting the team at all. especially since him and hawes play with some similarities. hawes can watch and see how valuable it is to have a big man who can set up his guys to score. he can also see how effort (earlier in the season) can make up a big difference for players who lack freak athleticism. and you gotta applaud that the guy lost 25 pounds to get himself ready to compete. besides the last couple weeks, the dude has played the whole season with way more bounce in his step. but i do agree that he looks like he's starting to shut it down, since the team isn't competing for a playoff spot. another case of a veteran stuck on a team developing young players.

...an easy slam dunk layup. -clippers announcer

by kingsfaninjapan on Mar 13, 2008 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Huh?

first of all, the only stat that matters is win/loses.

Ahh...another one I can safely ignore.

by otis29 on Mar 12, 2008 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

what?

Ask Kevin Martin what particular player he thinks makes others better. Ask Kevin Martin his favorite player with whom to play. (Hint: B. Miller is the answer to both.)

Hey, we've all got our opinions and that's fine. I just don't think yours - in this case - holds up to scrutiny. But hey, I found myself despising Mike Bibby for some not very good reasons: I just didn't like the f*cking guy, and I know it tainted my opinions of him and his play.

I respectfully disagree with your take on Brad. But, hey, that's what this blog is for - it would be terribly boring if we all agreed.

by Kusian on Mar 12, 2008 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

apologies....

for using the phrase "but hey" so many times. Perhaps next time I'll read my response before hitting "post." God, I hate it when I get sloppy. I can't lie: I want all my posts to sounds as concise and crisp as TZ's and Otis'. (Section you are damn close to as good as both of them...you get "Honorable Mention," my man.)

by Kusian on Mar 12, 2008 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good point Kusian

I didn't like Mike Bibby either and as a fan I enjoy rooting for people I like. Brad's whiny face occurs too often for my taste. Also. I'm tired of seeing him foul someone every time someone fouls him and he does not get the call. Every time, it's as if you can see his thought process, heavily flawed to its core, play out in slow motion: "You fouled me. Now I'm upset. The sucky ref won't give me payback so I'm going to get it myself. Hit next person I see!!!" Ugh. So self-destructive. So I find myself cursing him when he's doing stupid stuff and cautiously rooting for him when he's doing good stuff, waiting for him to spoil my admiration for him. Same as my ride watching Bibby. Of course I'd prefer to watch a whole team of quality characters who do not make mistakes because of unbridled juvenile emotional outbursts, but...

by NYCFan on Mar 13, 2008 9:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I will agree

that Miller is overpaid. He's making $10.5 million this year and he's probably better than your average MLE guy, which would make him a $7-8 million player.

But the wins/losses thing? By that logic, the Heat will waive D.Wade and Al Jefferson is the new 'Reef.

This team will not be ultra competitive again in Brad's NBA lifetime, so I am not averse to dealing him. However, he does make his teammates better (something you can say about only him and Udrih) and he's not really taking minutes from the young guys as they are still earning their time. I forsee Miller as a guy that would move to the bench were it best for the team (he's done that here once already). He may not be the cure, but he sure is not the entire problem.

All of that said, I would have taken pookey's Detroit deal of expiring contracts for Brad (which may have never been put on the table by the Pistons). But having said that, I would ask how you then fill Miller's shoes. You can give Hawes some more more minutes, but then you still have to hope that Shelden Williams develops, pray that 'Reef heels, sign another journeyman to an MLE, or (gulp!) activate K9(woof!).

Be careful what you ask for - it may just come true. As a life long Kings fan I have seen far too much of Ralph Sampson, Duane Causwell, Joe Kleine (sorry, Joe), Pervis Ellison and others "play" the middle for us. They aren't all Vlade, you know?

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Mar 12, 2008 5:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I had Mikki as a stop gap until next season

That was I believe my original thinking surrounding that line of thought.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Mar 12, 2008 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

start Hawes?

First off, I'm very impressed with how Brad came back this year compared to last. Yes, last year(s) was pretty much a bottom out so there was no where to go but up, but atleast he proved he has some fire left. What happened to that fire recently? Who knows. But I think he'll want to keep climbing next year. He seemed to thrive on the positives of...effort, passion, and the results...alot of double digit reb. games, some nice blocks, and two 20/20 games in a row! I hope he works hard on conditioning this offseason (instead of drinkin' beer?, ridin' his 4-wheelers, and huntin') and stays focused on continuing to improve his career.

Next thing that occured to me was that he does seem willing to give in to being tired/worn down and more importantly willing to step back and give others a chance. He seems modest that way. With 19 games left, Theus is asking for Brad's all out effort in 12. Then what?

Isn't now the perfect time to give Hawes 15-19 games as a starter and see what happens? Quite a few of the rookies are getting some or all starts. Are they gonna be ahead of the curve next year while Sac keeps bringing Hawes along slow? He's ready. He has fire. I'm not sure how great he'll be but lets find out. Let his recent climb continue.

Brad should still play major minutes but let Hawes be a starter in the NBA this year. It would only help Hawes' confidence going into next season and Brad with getting a little rest & a little hunger to play 'young and energized' again.

by busybe on Mar 12, 2008 8:40 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

why not?

good points.

...an easy slam dunk layup. -clippers announcer

by kingsfaninjapan on Mar 12, 2008 10:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Brad

I find some fans want to see all players (especially stars) as having all the skills and never having a bad game. In reality those players are few and far between. The key to me is to find players with talents that complement each other, I don't think Brad has ever been viewed as a dominant defensive center, if thats what you want from him you will be disapointed. He has a lot of good complementary skills, passing the ball, setting screens, a degree of toughness, a decent jump shot. Brad got paid big money as there are few big guys with that skill set, would you like more skills for the size and you would you like him to him to keep himself in better shape, probably.

By all means give Hawes more time to develop but he is only 19, and he is coming off knee surgery before the season started, if he starts developing maybe you look to deal Brad (if he has value) by the all star break of next year or after next season.

by Murf on Mar 13, 2008 8:07 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Sorry, but if you wait that long

to deal Miller it'll be too late.

He'll be coming off his best season in quite a while this summer, and it's unlikely his trade value is going to get any higher.

The reality is that by the time the Kings rebuild and get themselves back into contention in the Western Conference Brad Miller will be a shadow of his former self or out of the league completely. You yourself Murf offer the caveat of "if he has any value" by the 2009 all-star break. The thing is, Geoff Petrie can't afford to take that chance.

I don't mean to sound cold about it, but to some degree we're in a chess game here, and Petrie needs to think two or three moves ahead. Q) How does this team advance toward the goal of serious championship contention by keeping a 32 year old Miller (and that over-inflated contract) around?

We need to bite the bullet and say "bye bye" to Brad ASAP.

"When the Going Gets Weird, the Weird Turn Pro." (Hunter S Thompson)

by Mucho Moss on Mar 17, 2008 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with your theory, but...

"Sure, Marge. Communism works...in theory. - Homer Simpson

In other words, where do you deal him, keeping in mind that it has to work within the confines of the cap and trade rules.

I find roughly 9 teams that could deal for Brad mathematically next year - Chicago, Cleveland, Houston, Memphis, Minnesota, New Jersey, Portland, Seattle and Toronto. Of these teams, I find only one team that would have the disposable pieces and the potential desire - New Jersey, for Stromile Swift (expiring) and Trenton Hassell (player option in 09-10 for $4.4 million).

Of course we could always attempt to ship him and Artest to New York for Marbury, but unless we include Douby we would probably short ourselves in our attempt to re-sign Udrih.

Dealing Brad will be easier said then done.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Mar 17, 2008 10:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Brad's biggest problem...

is he often lets his emotions get the best of him. He easily gets bothered by non-calls or somebody pushing him. After that he becomes a big liability on the court. How many times do we have to watch the guy self destruct on the court as Theus looks on and shakes his head?

by KingsFan on Mar 13, 2008 4:11 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I just noticed

NYCfan already made the same observation. Yep, whiny Brad.

by KingsFan on Mar 13, 2008 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

One of the reasons I call him Brad Baby actually

Actually it's probably the only reason.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Mar 13, 2008 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Brad

has had a nice season and he still has considerable offensive skills and overall savvy. That said, those skills do not include the kind of defense and athleticism we want to see in the front court, and more importantly, by the time the Kings battle their way back into contention #52 be of absolutely no use to them.

Miller could still help a contending team, so I hope Petrie can move him along this summer as part of an overall re-building strategy.

(And BTW, this is basically a repeat of my take on the Brad Miller situation last season. Out with the old, in with the new)

"When the Going Gets Weird, the Weird Turn Pro." (Hunter S Thompson)

by Mucho Moss on Mar 17, 2008 9:56 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

BACK AGAIN

I'll say it again, most teams get thier tough inside play from the PF position - a spot we don't presently have an championship caliber player in. No offense to MikkiM. He gives everything he's got but he's a back-up on a good playoff team.
Get a real PF and Brad will BLOOM and run the team in the half court for many years. Centers with skill sets like his are hard to find.
ONCE AGAIN - excluding the top three, name me five Centers that are more productive - that you'd rather have.

by KingsYesterdayTodayTomorrow on Mar 19, 2008 12:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I like Brad

But since you asked...

Amare Stoudemire, Tim Duncan and Al Jefferson are all guys that play the 4 and the 5. They would all be an upgrade over Brad at the 5.

Dwight Howard, Andrew Bynum, Yao Ming, Marcus Camby, Tyson Chandler and Chris Kaman would all make my list, and Andrew Bogut would probably get the nod because of his age.

This does not mean that I do not like or appreciate Brad Miller. But I thought that your question deserved a response.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Mar 19, 2008 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs