A Tale of Two Teams

by coolcatreportdotcom on Mar 4, 2008 1:06 PM PST Comment 34 comments

There's a real story going on here, but a lot of fans and definitely the sportswriters are missing it as they try to drum up drama.

The Kings are 17-11 in games in which Kevin Martin, Ron Artest, Brad Miller, Beno Udrih AND Francisco Garcia all play, including a sterling 12-2 record at Arco. That includes wins over Detroit (twice), Utah (twice), San Antonio, Houston, New Orleans and a two-point loss to Phoenix.

Home 12-2; Away 5-9.

Pts for: 106.3 per game.

Pts. Against: 105.1 per game.

Point Differential: +33.

The Kings are 9-20 in games in which either Kevin Martin, Ron Artest, Brad Miller, Beno Udrih OR Francisco Garcia do not play. That includes the marquee wins against Dallas and Orlando.

Home 6-8; Away 4-13.

Pts for: 96.6 per game.

Pts. Against: 101.8 per game.

Point Differential: -159.

John Salmons and Mikki Moore are the only Kings to play in all 59 games, so they figure on both sides of the ledger.

Some other factioids:

Kenny Thomas has not played since Jan. 2. The Kings are 8-15 in games in which Kenny Thomas played. They are 19-17 when he doesn't play.

The Kings are 6-1 when Quincy Douby does not play, and 21-31 when he does play.

The Kings are 2-5 when Spencer Hawes does not play, and 25-26 when he does play.

The Kings were 8-3 with Mike Bibby and all the players above playing, 0-4 when one of them was missing.

Sam Amick is a Sac State graduate in his first job, and it looks like he's finally figured out that the way to make the jump out of Sactown to a "real" job is to create some controversy. It's too bad he's missing such a nice story in the process. You could say the same thing about some other "journalists" as well.

While making the playoffs are clearly a big longshot and the team needs to look at the younger players as much as possible, I don't blame Ron Artest and Kevin Martin for getting upset. They are right. This is a pretty decent team that may only be a few pieces away from becoming a force to reckon with, and they haven't had the luxury of having the full team together much this year and the winning feeling that goes with it.

(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)

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Some very good points

Statistically you bring some very good information to light. Those numbers would be 100% positive for this team moving forward were it not for the mercurial nature of Artest. In other words, if Artest had the mind set of Tim Duncan or Steve Nash, one would be a lot more comfortable moving forward.

I'm not sure that Amick deserves criticism here. Of all of the local writers, he consistently reports the news first, and when he states his opinion there is usually a clear line drawn between his facts and his opinions. I'm not sure how he is supposed to not report on the adventures of Ron Artest.

Put another way, would one be as critical of Amick here if this story were on Kobe Bryant?

Again, thanks for the stats breakdown. Very interesting.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Mar 4, 2008 1:22 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Ditto

And thanks CC for the work and sharing it.

by Kfan in Korea on Mar 4, 2008 2:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not sure...

... why Amick has anything to do with this analysis.

And he's not on his first job.

And disparaging a college many of us went to isn't cool, unless you went to the college too. (It's like a club.)

The analysis in the post was fine, top-shelf. YOUR incessant need to stir up controversy on this site is ill-suited, ill-reasoned, and ill-advised.

by Ziller on Mar 4, 2008 1:29 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Well

TZ, let's just agree to disagree. And I won't even say you are crazy or "not from Planet Earth" because of it.

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by coolcatreportdotcom on Mar 4, 2008 1:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

a line in the sand?

by Kusian on Mar 4, 2008 1:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Amick

should be writing this story, not auditioning for Desperate Housewives.

It's interesting that Artest at one point was fifth in the league in scoring in February, which probably deserves some recognition or at least a blurb. But I got that info from the TV crew, not Amick. He's clearly got more inportant things to work on.

Adrian Wojnarowski (Yahoo NBA beat writer) and Andy Katz (ESPN college hoops writer-analyst) are a couple of good examples of McClatchy sportwriters who moved up the ladder after they started dishing the dirt on Fresno State athletics. Looks like Amick is shifting his tune a bit to follow in their footsteps.

I'm not saying Amick shouldn't report on fines and stuff, but I wouldn't mind a little more reporting on what the team is actually doing on the floor, even if it's something good.

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by coolcatreportdotcom on Mar 4, 2008 1:40 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Amick does that plenty

In his Bee articles. In his blog, he tends to editorialize a bit more, which is fine IMO. It forces those of us who really care about the nuances of the team to work a bit to get that information.

If you are implying he's not speaking the truth or he has an agenda, you might be guilty of the same type of hackery you're accusing Amick. No facts, just supposition.

You are a great number cruncher, to be sure, but no amount of analysis of the numbers will take away the just completed road trip. After the first game, the team was awful, horrendous, just plain rotten. And one half of great basketball at home against an awful team has got you displaying your tail feathers again? Ridiculous.

Mikki Moore - WNBA Hair, WNBA Body, WNBA Talent

by otis29 on Mar 4, 2008 1:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

No Comprende

>>And one half of great basketball at home against an awful team has got you displaying your tail feathers again? Ridiculous.<<

I didn't quite understand this rant, but I do agree with you about one thing: that was one beautiful half of basketball, similar to what the team has often produced this season when playing with a full deck.

They certainly have struggled on the road, even with the full squad.

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by coolcatreportdotcom on Mar 4, 2008 2:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

So he should have ignored the story?

As a former journalism major I just can't get my arms around your criticism of Amick here. And I am certainly not one to put these guys on a pedestal, as my "Sacramento Media Roundtable" post would attest.

If this were about Kobe Bryant, would you be upset that Amick did not focus on the fact that Kobe is among the league leaders in scoring?

The unfortunate thing here is that your original post had some great stuff in it, good solid analysis. But since you seem intent on bashing Amick for what I see as no more than reporting a story (note - Amick did not fine Artest and Amick did not call out Theus in the media), the baby winds up getting thrown out with the bath water.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Mar 4, 2008 1:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

My Point

This is a pretty good team when all the players are healthy. We should focus on that.

I think Amick has gradually shifted more towards digging up dirt, especially in the past few weeks, even if it's based on pretty thin "research" and is more speculation than confirmed fact. Reread the Mikki Moore quote and how he turned that into a two-night drinking binge. Maybe it happened, maybe it didn't. But because he hinted that it did based on a non-confirmation quote from Mikki, some folks take it as gospel.

Then I read Voisin's crap and her take on the team's "dissension." No explanation, just throw it out there and see if it sticks.

I don't mind if the team sucks and the writers point it out. I don't mind if Artest or any other player on the team has a bad game and it is pointed out. But when they play well, give them their due.

Let's talk basketball. Are the Kings a good team? Is Ron Artest a good player? Is Kevin Martin a good player? Why or why not? Do the Kings miss Mike Bibby?

Those to me are the real issues surrounding this team. All of the rest of this is overblown BS.

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by coolcatreportdotcom on Mar 4, 2008 2:04 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Your point

Your inclusion of Amick is what allowed us to get away from talking about basketball. Had the post not included your opinion about Amick the focus would have been solely on the data that you so ably provided.

Just to clarify, it is your opinion that the Kobe Bryant case in Colorado should not have been covered, nor should his early season trade demands have been covered. That only his on court abilities should be reported on. Is that correct?

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Mar 4, 2008 2:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

That's because

Amick is shifting the focus away from basketball in my opinion, and in doing so, is missing a good story in my opinion.

Do you really want to compare the story based on the Mikki "quote" to the Kobe rape case? You're going to get even bigger stretch marks if that's the case.

Trade demands, Ron's opt-out comments, etc. are all fair game in my opinion. Vague hints without proof of wild night life scenes in Miami and talk of "dissension" without reporting more specifically and naming names don't quite meet that standard, in my opinion.

And, just to clarify, your intent is to do anything but with the statements above, in my opinion. In doing so, you focus not on what you feel is the substance of my post but on what you disagree with.

Maybe you might want to shift your focus a little and take a shot at whether you think the Kings are a good basketball team with a full roster.

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by coolcatreportdotcom on Mar 4, 2008 2:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

So th job of a reporter is strictly to say

whether a team is good or sucks. That would make a pretty boring story, and that's not what happens in any other sports city. The truth is that newspaper stories go with human interest because that is what most readers want. Especially when the wins and loses are not all that inspiring. I really don't want to read every day about the mathamatical chances left of the Kings making the playoffs. I am looking at the future. And in this case there isn't much "digging" required to get the dirt.

by SavageBeast on Mar 4, 2008 2:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

No

I am not looking for the reporter to be a cheerleader or pure game recapper. But what the teams is doing on the court should be the focus, without a doubt. If I want idle speculation I can just skip Amick's stuff and get enough of that here.

Extracurricular reporting should be based on facts and provided in context with a quest to accurately reflect what's going on. The Miami story and hints at team dissension without filling in the blanks don't meet that standard.

I do think that anytime you have a staff full of coaches and 12-15 players worried about their careers and the rest of the entourage that you are going to have agendas playing out and even some friction. And if want to take a look under that facade, you should do so with care and solid reporting and without playing favorites.

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by coolcatreportdotcom on Mar 4, 2008 2:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

So....

Do you think player dissatisfaction with Musselman last season had anything to do with the 5-17 record down the stretch? And if so, would that be a fair story for a Bee reporter to discuss?

And how do you know it's idle speculation? It's not like Amick isn't with the team constantly and knows these guys a bit. Additionally, wouldn't printing unfounded rumors and flat-out lies hurt his access to the guys down the road?

Of course, you could have some factual data that Amick is misreporting the mood in the clubhouse???

Mikki Moore - WNBA Hair, WNBA Body, WNBA Talent

by otis29 on Mar 4, 2008 3:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Fair Stories

<<Do you think player dissatisfaction with Musselman last season had anything to do with the 5-17 record down the stretch? And if so, would that be a fair story for a Bee reporter to discuss?<<<p> Probably and yes, with the following caveat. Be as specific as possible, and don't trade favorable treatment of a player for dirt. Don't say "the whole team hates Musselman" if it's in fact one or two players. Provide some context that quantifies and qualifies your premise.

>>And how do you know it's idle speculation? It's not like Amick isn't with the team constantly and knows these guys a bit. Additionally, wouldn't printing unfounded rumors and flat-out lies hurt his access to the guys down the road?<<

On these kinds of things, it's always easy to figure out who benefits. If they continue to benefit by promoting team discord, it won;t hurt the access.

It's also always helpful to put others in the role of doing the accusing rather than the reporter sharing what he "feels" is the situation.

If Artest was partying in Miami, ask Artest if he was. If Artest gets a fine, ask him for his response. Put these ghuys on the spot but also give them a chance to respond.

What I find absolutely fascinating about this thread is that nobody apparently cares that this is a pretty decent team when they have all the horses. I guess that part of the post was just too dry to comment on.

Can I borrow your People Magazine when you're done?

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by coolcatreportdotcom on Mar 4, 2008 4:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

A decent team?

At home...maybe. Maybe if they are all together for an entire season, they could sneak into an 8 seed in the West.

Did they or did they not have their full roster on the most recent 1-4 roadie? How good did that team look?

Mikki Moore - WNBA Hair, WNBA Body, WNBA Talent

by otis29 on Mar 4, 2008 4:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Generally speaking

They played poorly on the road trip, going 2-4 if you count the Portland win. They lost to two top-tier teams on the road in Orlando and Dallas, teams they would struggled to beat on the orad in any case. They played very poorly against Miami, really did not play very well against Charlotte but somehow prevailed and just couldn't quite get over the hump against the Hawks.

Good thing it's not a five-game season.

It's a very frustrating part of the season, no doubt. We are kind of in no man's land.

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by coolcatreportdotcom on Mar 4, 2008 6:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Lose the Amick paragraph

from your post and we are not discussing it, yes?

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Mar 4, 2008 4:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

You're Probably Right

It definitely looks people are more interested in talking about Amick than the performance of the Kings, and an Amick diary could have stood alone. I have little doubt there will be opportunities to revisit that topic.

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by coolcatreportdotcom on Mar 4, 2008 7:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Dude I swear

You are must frustrating than Ron Artest. Which is, naturally, saying something.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Mar 6, 2008 1:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Put it in the same catagory with your

response to the My Sentiments Exactly thread
Where you didn't respond to the point of the story, but instead insinuated that Kmart was behind it somehow and turned it into a slam on Kevin:

It looks like Kevin is not above playing a little hardball here. Then again, if he's whining to his folks and they are stirring it up on his behalf, he comes off a little like Salmons.

by Kfan in Korea on Mar 4, 2008 6:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Ummm...

So, you point out that a team with the full advantages of its roster ends up playing pretty well (aghad! really? Holy snizzlejuice, my perception of basketball... changing... against my will... can't stop... profound statements morphing whole state of being.... arrrgghh).

Then, you insult a (pretty good) write who we all read and depend on by saying that his job is not "real." WTF does that mean? What counts as a real job in journalism then, if being published daily in a paper and having a mainstream blog doesn't cut it? I don't know...

Then, you play the innocent when the readers of this blog don't succumb to your glorious analysis? Wait, what? Our responses aren't valid becuase we tear apart your arguments, and if they were then we would be agreeing with you. That's your philosiphy, right? Wow. That's amazing. That is GENIUS. Coolcat, you are the smartest random-person-on-the-internet I know. I bask in the light that shines from your perfect writing. What is your "real" job, so that I could be more "real"? How do I be more like coolcat? Do I have to follow your philosophy? Or, do I have to just bluntly ignore anyone who disagrees with me and say they are ignoring my real argument?

If you say something stupid and offensive, people will respond to it. The fact that a team plays better when all the players are together isn't amazing analysis, it's some bullcrap I'd expect to hear from Madden:

"Well, so.. this team, this team they're not playing well because they have had alot of injuries, you see. You can't do that to a team, take away their players from injury. I mean, if you take away players from a team, then they don't play well. See, that's the same thing as if an injury happened. So that's why they're not playing as well as they should."

Everyone knew this team had the talent to do well. Abbot, Stein, SVG and heck, even Amick mentioned that the fully healthy Kings could make a run to the playoffs. Welcome to the party.

Wait, so what's youre response going to be? I'm betting first of you're going to say I was wrong, but how? Are you going to logically deny me (go ahead, try, I dare you)? Are you going to say I ignored what you were saying (nope, hit that on the nozzle)? Are you going to say I was just attacking you just to attack you (can't do that now, can you?)? Or are you just going to ignore this (considering you've replied to every other statement in this thread, the omission would be... suspicious, no?)? C'mon, I'm just dying to hear it. Edge of my seat.

Mikki Moore in the skills challenge! - LPA

by iashwash on Mar 4, 2008 9:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

You won't get a response

because it requires an intelligent answer without contradicting oneself. In other words Coolcat isn't capable of answering it.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Mar 6, 2008 1:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Silence is Golden.

Mikki Moore in the skills challenge! - LPA

by iashwash on Mar 7, 2008 3:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Sorry

I simply can't respond to every post on these boards that challenges something I say or questions my motives.

I think I answered some of your rant in Pookey's diary and you can read that.

I'll try to tie up the "we're better when we're all together" thought in a future diary since that got sidetracked in the Amick discussion.

If you look at those numbers, we are barely good enough to win consistently even with the full roster intact. We've gotten a good glimpse of what happens when it's not in the past two games and throughout this season.

If we make moves that diminish the squad we will pay the consequences in the short term. We've already done that somewhat in the Bibby deal, and we are 4-7 since then. I am not saying that's necessarily a bad thing and it may be necessary to go that route as we build for the future.

Miller and Moore won't be around when we get good again, and you can probably say the same thing about Artest. But Miller and Artest play at a high enough level now to keep the team afloat while it transitions to the future. If you cut either one of them loose and get back Bibby-type returns you will officially enter rebuilding status.

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by coolcatreportdotcom on Mar 8, 2008 9:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Officially entering rebuilding status

would be a good thing to do. To bad it may come 3-4 years into our rebuild.

by Kfan in Korea on Mar 8, 2008 12:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Not sure what's going on here

But, I'll respond as best I can:

If we make moves that diminish the squad we will pay the consequences in the short term.

Yeah, agreed. In fact, I think we'll pay for it in the long-term too. I've made the point about those "Bibby-type" returns: I'm a firm believer in stock-piling youthful talent, I've written a diary about it, stating that the talent and not just cap space is needed for a successful future.

If you look at those numbers, we are barely good enough to win consistently even with the full roster intact.

Yeah, agreed. That's why everyone is adopting the blow-it-up philosophy. Exactly because of that. I'm not sure what's all-revealing about that statement.

But Miller and Artest play at a high enough level now to keep the team afloat while it transitions to the future.

I think Miller is needed to help this team grow as well as keep it competitive. Artest doesn't help the kids grow, and makes them less competitive, as they go to Artest-in-crunch-time offense, rather than everyone trying to step up (as Miller won't). So, I find this point contentious, but only slightly so.

If you cut either one of them loose and get back Bibby-type returns you will officially enter rebuilding status.

So, if we get rid of all our starters, we're in rebuilding mode? Thanks for the update.

That's my problem with your original post - you didn't add anything unique, but you raised airs when people blew up at your original thoughts about Amick (in my limited opinion, the only thing of note in your Diary). You didn't respond to that, the main contention of my above post, so in fact you beat me.
I didn't question your "motives", I questioned your methods. And I didn't rant, I tackled your two statements and said they were senseless (ie, without method). Don't take heavy sarcasm for anger.
You responded by completely ignoring what I said. That's fine, I didn't predict you'd do that, so you win.

Mikki Moore in the skills challenge! - LPA

by iashwash on Mar 11, 2008 1:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bottom Line

Your humility aside, I really didn't see anything very original in your first post that hadn't been discussed earlier.

You were late to the party in that thread and then came in with a dolled-up package without much substance that could be summed up as: "Your post sucks. I dare you to respond. I double-dare you!"

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by coolcatreportdotcom on Mar 11, 2008 5:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well....

"I am not looking for the reporter to be a cheerleader or pure game recapper. But what the teams is doing on the court should be the focus, without a doubt."

I dont think you are very accurate here. That is what Amick does. Most or his articles are based upon the previous nights game, who is playing well, etc. Instead, you took this small subject out of his blog, and are trying to turn it in to the main focus.

Until your last paragraph, I kept thinking about the won/loss numbers, but you sidetracked by attacked Amick. I belive that is pretty close to what you are accusing him of, no?

Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal

by 27freethrows on Mar 4, 2008 6:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

i don't know...

i'm usually amused by coolcat's incredible acts of defiance, they have a sort of underdog feeling to them - like your hoping one of his arguments will finally come together and have an absolute direction to them - but you lost me on this one

the stats about the teams win loss record in various line-ups would have been more than enough for a great diary, but i guess that is what makes coolcat one of a kind

"I think the Shaq trade will be the biggest mistake since movie execs cast Arnold Schwarzenegger as Mr. Freeze based on box office reputation"

by CrownUs93 on Mar 4, 2008 6:26 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Well said and I have to agree

The part about Amick is what I just didn't/don't get.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Mar 5, 2008 12:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

My analysis

Kings: suck
Horses: suck
Artest: sucks
KMArt: okay/ kinda sucks
Amick: Okay/ kinda sucks
Coolcat posts: kinda suck
Coolcat bashers like myself: kinda suck

Shitty team with or without all the horses. I think they are more like donkeys.

"I drink your milkshake...I drink it up!!!"

by kangsfan on Mar 5, 2008 12:36 AM PST reply actions 0 recs